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70sSoundquality View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: New Prog
    Posted: December 21 2005 at 01:06
Hey all.

I am in the middle of putting an album together completely alone. I will say that, the sounds, the songwriting, and instrumentation is completely vintage (70s). Now, I am not doing this to simply re-hash, or rob the 70's of it's originality. I just happen to think that "spacey" style of arranging and composing is still an untapped resource, and I find that the vintage recording gear and instruments simply sound neat.

I was mixing through a short 3 minute tune I made and I got the sudden curiousity of, "what is the probability of people wanting to even hear this??"
I have heard quite a lot of "new prog" and find it to lack the "bite" and intensity of the 1970s, and I wondered, if  someone or some band were to release an album, say with the intensity of ELP (using them as an unbiased example), what would their chances of getting signed be? I have heard plently of new UK progressive bands that are really boring, yet they have careers, record deals, record support, tours, crews, not to mention money. I'm wondering if there is an audience out there who is thirsty for the old school style like me? I'd pay money for records, for concert tickets, if only there was a band I could really dig. The new bands lack that 70s bite and groove, the spaceyness and depth is just missing. What do you guys think?

   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2005 at 01:14

I dont think This is completely on Topic but there is this new band called Eccentric orbit and they (coincidentally)sound some what lile ELP.Insrumental.

Lotsa Bass,Keyboards and enough synth to shake a stick at.

Im tellin u they flippin awesome and if they are not in the archives then all be alarmed and dissapointed.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2005 at 01:15
I do agree that the feeling u refer to is essentially dissolved though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2005 at 02:31

 

         I've often wished I could find some new music that had the same SOUND as the 70's stuff.  I actually have access to a recording studio that has a choice of analog and digital, and I stick with the analog when possible.  I'd do what you're doing if I could play guitar/keys, but I am a singer/percussionist. 

         I think one of your biggest hurdles will be to recreate that 70's production quality.  That digital sheen that's covered everything since the 80's is what sets modern prog bands apart, plus their leaning towards fusion and metal, away from melody and counterpoint.  You might take a few pointers from people who do bluegrass or americana, since they don't add a ton of reverb to everything....

         You wouldn't be anywhere near Austin, TX, would you?  I've checked out a few bands looking for a vocalist that call themselves prog, but they sound like the bands I described above...

          Gotta leave now....  at work, going home....

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2005 at 02:33

Well, I haven't heard much new prog bands lately but I guess new prog bands lack that warmth that I, on a personal level, tend to associate with bands like ELP, Yes, or King Crimson.  Regarding your question about the probability of people wanting to hear that kind of prog, I have but a faint idea that perhaps a small to medium-sized audience in America or Europe would want to hear that kind of stuff; sad to say, here in the Philippines, people are suckers for pop culture so as progressive rock musicians we'd only get a handful or less than a handful of people wanting to listen to our stuff.

What's worse is that prog fans here in the Philippines tend to like progressive metal more than any other prog, they all yak about Dream Theater and all those other prog metal bands (I'm not saying Dream Theater is bad, I actually like them, but it would have been better if prog fans here appreciated other forms of prog as I do).  You can take my word for it.  I've done a few gigs way back 2000 and us, the prog band, would go to gigs with only about 20 people watching (it sucks) and back then we were playing alongside a prog metal act.  We'd only get bigger audiences if there were non-prog bands along the gig.  Also, if we were with a prog metal band, their audience would comprise around 80% of the crowd which would mean, as far as my experience would go, old-school prog bands have the lesser share of the audience.  But that does not mean I've given up; I'm still writing new stuff (though not performing anymore) and as a matter of fact, I'm also trying to put out an album by myself which has got both elements of old-school prog and new-school prog (something that has the best of both worlds) which I may be only able to share to some of my friends due to limited resources.

Well, that's how I see things here in the Philippines.  You may have better chances there.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2005 at 02:35
I think it would be a mistake to try and record like that (though I would be interested in hearing it). More modern recording technologies give you better sound quality. I know what you're talking about though, because I always used to think the exact same thing, that the 'analog warmth' as it seems to be called, is a lot more attractive than the echoey, too--much-reverb modern digital recordings. But anyway, there must be a way to make a recording sound...I don't know, not boring, with digital equipment. I would presonally want to do something that's revolutionary in some way, and you can't do that if you use old techniques, in my opinion.
I begin to wonder if the points of all the ancient myths are solemnly di-rected straight.. at.. meeeeeeeeee!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2005 at 02:42
I have definitely noticed a difference between the sound of old school prog and modern prog.  In fact, that "digital" sound of modern prog was the largest obstacle preventing me from getting into modern prog.  I've managed to overcome that barrier, but I still prefer the old sounds.  I would love to hear what you're working on.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2005 at 03:48
Welcome to the Forum!

Originally posted by 70sSoundquality 70sSoundquality wrote:

I was mixing through a short 3 minute tune I made and I got the sudden
curiousity of, "what is the probability of people wanting to even hear
this??"


3 minutes? A short prog tune just about fits on one side of a vinyl album!

Originally posted by 70sSoundquality 70sSoundquality wrote:

I'm wondering if there is an
audience out there who is thirsty for the old school style like me? I'd
pay money for records, for concert tickets, if only there was a band I
could really dig. The new bands lack that 70s bite and groove, the
spaceyness and depth is just missing. What do you guys think?


I am always on the lookout for such bands... I think there are many here who would want to hear what you're working on - MP3s available?

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2005 at 12:30
Hey plastic. Unfortunately for you, all of my gear down to the half inch tape machine is 70s! But not to worry. If you listen to some of the 70s mixes, Ill use Chris Squire Fish out of Water as an example; you'll notice that the clarity is just amazing! Back then they were using tons of reverb too but It was delay line tube reverb, real true studio plate reverbs which I guess makes the sound what it is. Im really truly excited for the near future. Congressional elections. Songs to record. I have some real great things to play with, such as 70s synthesizers, rhodes, tube organs, etc. I have about 6 tunes, two 14 minute numbers and a few shorter ones. Im doing it because Im sick of watching others get credit for lousy productions, and unispired playing and boring songwriting. Who else here writes? Im very curious to hear other members music. As for mp3s, no sorry, that is sort of sad. My reel to reel machine is about 100 lbs, and my PC is upstairs so preliminary transfers are sort of hard. But this is interesting. I imagined more people would rather not hear the old sound and just sort of move on. I cant f**king wait to finish recording!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2005 at 12:32
Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Welcome to the Forum!

Originally posted by 70sSoundquality 70sSoundquality wrote:

I was mixing through a short 3 minute tune I made and I got the sudden
curiousity of, "what is the probability of people wanting to even hear
this??"


3 minutes? A short prog tune just about fits on one side of a vinyl album!

Originally posted by 70sSoundquality 70sSoundquality wrote:

I'm wondering if there is an
audience out there who is thirsty for the old school style like me? I'd
pay money for records, for concert tickets, if only there was a band I
could really dig. The new bands lack that 70s bite and groove, the
spaceyness and depth is just missing. What do you guys think?


I am always on the lookout for such bands... I think there are many here who would want to hear what you're working on - MP3s available?


Thanks for the welcome! Have you ever heard a tune by Rush called "madrigal" ? I always thought it was such a pretty tune, but everyone i know dislikes it, mainly because it is too short!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2005 at 12:36

Try Saens (thanks Jody! )

Have you heard IQ?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2005 at 12:37
Originally posted by chromaticism chromaticism wrote:


What's worse is that prog fans here in the Philippines tend to like progressive metal more than any other prog, they all yak about Dream Theater and all those other prog metal bands (I'm not saying Dream Theater is bad, I actually like them, but it would have been better if prog fans here appreciated other forms of prog as I do).  You can take my word for it.  I've done a few gigs way back 2000 and us, the prog band, would go to gigs with only about 20 people watching (it sucks) and back then we were playing alongside a prog metal act.  We'd only get bigger audiences if there were non-prog bands along the gig.  Also, if we were with a prog metal band, their audience would comprise around 80% of the crowd which would mean, as far as my experience would go, old-school prog bands have the lesser share of the audience.  But that does not mean I've given up; I'm still writing new stuff (though not performing anymore) and as a matter of fact, I'm also trying to put out an album by myself which has got both elements of old-school prog and new-school prog (something that has the best of both worlds) which I may be only able to share to some of my friends due to limited resources.

Well, that's how I see things here in the Philippines.  You may have better chances there.



Thanks for the words of enthusiasm. I agree- all of the "berkeley college of music" snob friends I once had were simply into metal prog, which I found to be laughable and all in jest. Its such empty music too me. Since then, these people are not my friends anylonger! But I share your feelings, I really do, and it is no better in the States. I'ts also really good to hear that you are trying to get recordings together- have the tunes been written yet and are just waiting to be taped? Do you play drums and guitars on the recordings? We all should keep in contact. Really we should
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2005 at 15:07
Originally posted by 70sSoundquality 70sSoundquality wrote:

If you listen to some of the 70s mixes, Ill use Chris Squire Fish out of Water as an example; you'll notice that the clarity is just amazing! Back then they were using tons of reverb too but It was delay line tube reverb, real true studio plate reverbs which I guess makes the sound what it is. Im really truly excited for the near future. Congressional elections. Songs to record. I have some real great things to play with, such as 70s synthesizers, rhodes, tube organs, etc. I have about 6 tunes, two 14 minute numbers and a few shorter ones.


Huh, interesting, so you're saying that back then the reverb and stuff was more REAL than it is now, because it's all computerized and stuff? Can you expand on that further. And speaking of computerized, I've been thinking about this recently: You mentioned 70s synths, but I've recently found myself to be agianst synthesizers, they're to computerized. I like the organic sounds of organs, pianoos, electric pianos, etc., Hugh Banton is my new keyboard idol.
I begin to wonder if the points of all the ancient myths are solemnly di-rected straight.. at.. meeeeeeeeee!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2005 at 15:41
Wow, I didn't know Neil Young was in this forum! 

Best of luck to you, though!

I find the internet to be cold and emotionless, so I wrote this on a scroll and send it to an admin via carrier pigeon, so he could post it.

Sorry to be a smartass, I've just never understood this "anything written with modern technology is immediately cold and emotionless" philosophy.




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2005 at 16:58
Originally posted by Empathy Empathy wrote:



Sorry to be a smartass, I've just never understood this "anything written with modern technology is immediately cold and emotionless" philosophy.






I sympathize with your view as I hate narrow-mindedness as well, but I feel that if you re-read my post you'll find that I genuinly find the bulk of new music boring, regardless of technological format. Yours, Jn
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2005 at 17:38
Originally posted by Plastic Man Plastic Man wrote:

[QUOTE=70sSoundquality]

Huh, interesting, so you're saying that back then the reverb and stuff was more REAL than it is now, because it's all computerized and stuff? Can you expand on that further. And speaking of computerized, I've been thinking about this recently: You mentioned 70s synths, but I've recently found myself to be agianst synthesizers, they're to computerized. I like the organic sounds of organs, pianoos, electric pianos, etc., Hugh Banton is my new keyboard idol.


I wrote a big reply to this and all of a sudden in a flash, it dissapeared from my godamn screen. I'll address it again tonight.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2005 at 20:41
Originally posted by Plastic Man Plastic Man wrote:


Huh, interesting, so you're saying that back then the reverb and stuff was more REAL than it is now, because it's all computerized and stuff? Can you expand on that further. And speaking of computerized, I've been thinking about this recently: You mentioned 70s synths, but I've recently found myself to be agianst synthesizers, they're to computerized. I like the organic sounds of organs, pianoos, electric pianos, etc., Hugh Banton is my new keyboard idol.


Back in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and some of the 80s and even up to today (and maybe as early as the 40s) plate reverbs were accepted as the norm, the standard in which all reverb was measured. In the 70s digital devices became available, and the bucket brigade system was about the first digital delays known to most (which can be heard on Wish you Were Here, according to David). In the late 70's EMT devised an all digital reverb unit which sounded absolutely amazing, but cost thousands and thousands of dollars. People don't realize how prevalent digital was in the 70s- so this notion that some of us are simply out to get digital is foolish. Many albums were digitally recorded in the 70s on the first DAT machine developed by 3M- most notably used on Ry Cooders "bop until you drop" album of 1979. (in fact, Steely Dan may have used this very machine in 1979 during the gaucho sessions but opted not to for reasons unknown). In fact, laser disc came out in 1979, so you know it had been in the works for quite some time.

But, back to the plate reverberators-
They are a large sheet of steel, usually 6-9 feet long, maybe longer, and 4-5 feet high depending on the make, and smaller "mini echo plates" were offered by EMT for the home user. Two transducers  carry the input signal and they vibrate the huge sheet of steel which then gets received and amplified by two pickups for a true stereo image- most plates of the day consisted of low noise powerful tube amps as the return, but solid state FET designs were available as early as 1969-1971 (as disclosed by wendy carlos). The fact of the matter is, plate reverberation sounds FAR more realistic and sympathetic to the ears than any digital algorithm reverb plug-in...which is what most "engineers" are accepting these days.

In my 70's "studio", I use a dual spring reverb unit from 1969, which may not be as impressive as a plate reverb, but sounds so much more fun and brilliant than any emulation.

Mixing consoles in the 70s were also something to truly behold- while FET circuits may be updated in mixers with sh*tty IC's, FET STILL holds the power as "the sound" of the era (why do digital dopes still argue that you can "re-create" the analog sound in the digital domain?? you really cant!). I received an M15 24 channel recording desk which was made in 1978, and features two completely discrete fet circuits in each channel strip; I am telling you from my own ears that the 70s "sound" is something truly behold. The fact that you couldn't cram 24+ channels of sound on a tiny chip then only means that the hard route had to be taken, and the harder one works, the greater results he will yield.
While I have never experienced MCI, studer, or Neve gear, I feel I have a good idea of what can be done in the mixing domain with analog, and what can still be accomplished even with my modest -4db equipment. Analog synthesizers to me are a dream. A discrete voltage controlled oscillator design hardly sounds "computerized" to me but we have different opinions. Analog synthesizers can sound very lush, and it is you who creates and designs the sounds (see my website devoted to Octave synthesizers.. www.octavecat.homestead.com ). As for organs, I agree. I prefer the tonewheel organ sound of a hammond versus the reed organ, (of which I have), but the wurly reed organs offer an electro-mechanical sound that can be earth shattering when paired with the proper vintage reverb. Also, I just got finished overhauling my 1976 Rhodes piano so I can really appreciate the glorious nature of electro mechanical analog, it is just so damn fun.

Ps, plate reverbs can be easily made, you just have to put in some time!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2005 at 22:17
Whoa, that's a lot of technical knowledge, interesting. Well good luck, and we hope to hear some results soon!
I begin to wonder if the points of all the ancient myths are solemnly di-rected straight.. at.. meeeeeeeeee!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2005 at 00:32
Honestly, there are really good bands from the 80s and onwards, you just have to dig deep to find them. Prog Archives is the best place to do it. Of course, once you find a obscure prog cd it will likey be expensive, like AFTERGLOW's "Yggdrasil," ($30 on Amazon.com )
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2005 at 11:06
Originally posted by 70sSoundquality 70sSoundquality wrote:

Originally posted by Empathy Empathy wrote:



Sorry to be a smartass, I've just never understood this "anything written with modern technology is immediately cold and emotionless" philosophy.






I sympathize with your view as I hate narrow-mindedness as well, but I feel that if you re-read my post you'll find that I genuinly find the bulk of new music boring, regardless of technological format. Yours, Jn


Fair enough. I did re-read your post. Good luck with the new album!
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