LED ZEPPELIN PROG OR NOT

penguindf12 wrote: "Alternative Prog" so old proggers know they aren't "true" prog or whatever --

From an old progger:

Pengy, yer posts make me happy to be here.

penguindf12 wrote: Kinda, kinda not. Led Zep are hard rock, with some progressive leanings, not unlike Eddie Van Halen or Queen. But not full-on prog, because just listening to them you can tell. The only real proggish recording they did was "IV". But if I had my way, we'd include them in this side under the title "hard prog rock" along with Rush, Van Halen, and Queen (and for you purists we'd also have them under "Alternative Prog" so old proggers know they aren't "true" prog or whatever -- including them on this side would be a boon, really. If some Zeppelin fan ignorant of prog stumbles across this site and sees Led Zeppelin on it, they might say "hm, prog? maybe I should look into it" and BANG! we have a possible convert)

I don't think there's much comparison between LZ and Queen - Queen were far and away the more proggy band - certainly far more prog than Uriah Heep, Procul Harum or Mannfred Mann's Earth Band. I'm not making the case for Queen, as I have tried before and failed - but I don't understand how groups whose prog output is not only lower but inferior make it into the archives.

Never mind all this "majority of the output" nonsense - if that is how groups are judged, why the heck are Barclay James Harvest, Supertramp, Styx and Asia in here? Queen produced far more prog in their second album than all 4 put together!! (I might concede on BJH...).

Also, why are people so averse to even discussing whether a band like Led Zep are prog or not? It might be blatant to most of us that they're not, but to just post junk like "Put this argument to bed" is to deny the whole purpose of a discussion forum, i.e. to discuss music. Maybe there are too many polls and "is X prog" style chats - maybe these should be cordoned off to other sections of the forum, as they are clearly extremely popular with many.

/end rant

(that feels better!!!)

danbo wrote: The wheels on the bus go round and round....

'round and round....

Man that that's a good song!

penguindf12 wrote: If some Zeppelin fan ignorant of prog stumbles across this site and sees Led Zeppelin on it, they might say "hm, prog? maybe I should look into it" and BANG! we have a possible convert)

Excellent idea!  

Petra wrote: penguindf12 wrote: If some Zeppelin fan ignorant of prog stumbles across this site and sees Led Zeppelin on it, they might say "hm, prog? maybe I should look into it" and BANG! we have a possible convert) Excellent idea!

That "logic" would see us put all music here, in an effort to lure in and "catch" the unwary.

Hmmmm.... Might be fun to review a Mariah or Christina CD or two....

"This caterwauling, talentless singing slut, who dresses much like the hooker Reed picked up last night, only sleazier...."

No offence meant to the female forum members!

threefates wrote: He said that ELP and Yes had a more European sound with classical influence while most the rock bands in Britain at that time had an American blues influence. Thats surely true with Led Zeppelin... they were very bluesy and pure rock.

I agree , and within what you say TF, is perhaps why LZ stayed above ground, while progressive rock bands in the Uk were slowly forced underground (and worse, had little choice but to perform mainly outside the UK). I'm referring to the tirade of abuse from cocky, in the ascendancy punk writers, in the mid 70's who clumped together ELP Yes, LZ, Rod Stewart amongst other bands/artists, as the rock dinosaurs. The latter two seemed unaffected by such categorisation (indeed most people have forgotten their inclusion), I suggest because they were staying with blues rock, not making their music too complicated nor progressing too far beyond the limits of straight rock. Then, good prog rock bands were exploring, extending thier musical repertoise and skills, and including some  of the complexities associated with  European serious music - perhaps it was the over-indulgence in theatre which also encouraged the abuseful attacks. When John Peel said he felt had the equivalent of O Levels for the music he liked (i.e. 20 years or more ago, O Levels were the examinations to assess 16 year olds in the UK) but you needed A Levels for progressive rock (examinations for 18 years olds as entrance requirements for university). Hence the  fault line that separated progressive rock, from most others: this is rock listened to by intellectuals, therefore assume dby outsiders to be elitist. In comparison, the relative simplicity of blues based rock, which could be picked up by amateur musicians with three chords to their names, therefore a more attractive base from which to develop one's music, and so the more likely to be explored for inspiration. The cross-over into progressive rock would demand better musical skills and music theoretical knowledge. During my part time career as rock and jazz dj, I've had people tell me that don't like what I play because it is complex and the musicians are doing more than 3 chords - I've despaired that people aren't prepared to take the challenge  of music that last more than 3 minutes and alas are happy with music that is largely throw away.

I reckon there's great value to be had from discussing bands such as LZ, and whether or not they are "prog". I agree with the majority view that they are not, and that they are one of the many bands who have ventured into or towards prog from time to time. As such, they should stay out of the archives, but should be discussed in the forum.

Codgers such as myself can tend to forget that many of the bands we discuss were in their prime years before some of our more youthful friends were even born. While to us, such bands are as familiar as an old pair of shoes, others may be less aware of their music. It must therefore be entirely construcutive to identify here where bands like Zep made prog or prog like music.

What I find less helpful is to question the inclusion on the site of bands who are already here. I'm sure every one of us will feel that some of the bands listed should not have been included. I'd much rather though that the administrators erred on the side of including some questionable bands, than missing out worthy ones. Let's also assume that once a band has been listed, they will not be removed.

maani wrote: As an aside, I personally believe that, despite their place here, Supertramp is not "prog" (as defined on this site) by this standard.  Yes, COTC and most of EITQM are (somewhat arguably, but nonetheless acceptably) prog.  However, this is only two albums out of over a dozen, and thus does not equal the majority of their output, which was pop (prior to COTC) and (my term) "progressive pop" since BIA. That's my two cents.  Take it or leave it... Peace.

Maani, You made your views on Supertramp clear recently on another thread. I'm not sure why you appear to "pick on" them so much, but I don't propose to ressurect the are they/aren't they discussion, save to say that in my book they are! 

What i would say though is that I question your statement about their early albums. Had you said their albums after EITQM moved towards pop, I would have been inclined to agree. Their first two albums were however like chalk and cheese. The first one now sounds somewhat dated, but was certainly among the most "progressive" of any of their albums.

Eloquently argued, Easy Livin.

Not that I'm trying to defend maani - he can do that for himself - but I don't consider his mentioning SUPERTRAMP again as "picking on them". Presumably he feels the band is the best example (in his view) to support his argument. I appreciate that you think that SUPERTRAMP are a Prog band (I don't think they are, incidentally, but, like you, don't want to start that particular discussion again at the moment) but I don't think bands already in the Archives should be off-limits to such debates, especially debates of the reasoned and civil kind that you and maani are conducting.

These discussions tend to go "round and round" to quote Danbo, but I suppose that's inevitable using a public forum of this type.