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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2015 at 11:41
Originally posted by *frinspar* *frinspar* wrote:

This growing e-cigarette culture is making me grumpy. Not only do people look incredibly foolish sucking on those ridiculous sonic screwdrivers, but they just love talking about the new flavor juice they just found.
And it seems like there are more e-cig supply stores popping up than weed stores in Colorado. Unhappy
 
yes!!
 
then again I hate all fads ... there's something about mass unoriginality that makes me crazy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2015 at 12:31
^ Nothing wrong with e-cigs. Ermm I have a co-worker who smokes one, and I'm happy for him; it doesn't bother me. He still keeps coming back to actual cigarettes, though, believe it or not.

Internet and iPhone were "fads", remember?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2015 at 12:35
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ Nothing wrong with e-cigs. Ermm I have a co-worker who smokes one, and I'm happy for him; it doesn't bother me. He still keeps coming back to actual cigarettes, though, believe it or not.

Internet and iPhone were "fads", remember?
 
I don't recall anyone considering those to be fads - and I was certainly around for the beginning of both.
 
ipads maybe ..I don't think they will last
 
Planking = fad
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2015 at 12:39
^ So, why would e-cigs be considered just a fad? Aren't they the future?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2015 at 12:44
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ So, why would e-cigs be considered just a fad? Aren't they the future?
 
my gut says no ..
 
I think people who never smoked are using them because they're caught up in the technology and the need to look cool .. like why young kids smoke in the first place.
 
plus most places wont allow them .. so they aren't accomplishing anything.
 
I think - as your friend does - they'll just eventually lose interest and either smoke ciggies or quit.
 
we'll meet back here in a year and see if it happens or not
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2015 at 13:16
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I suppose one interesting venture would be to try to delineate at what sonic point does sound end and music begin.
I'm not sure of this yet, but I think my position is it has a lot to do with the intent of the "performer" or sound source.  Maybe that's why someone on a stage playing a jack hammer in the context of a concert can be said to be playing "music" (now there's a concert I'd go see), and a bird tweeting away in a tree cannot.  The bird doesn't CALL it music - it's just what birds do when... I don't know why they tweet, but I don't think it's for my enjoyment.

So I guess this position defines music as the product of an intentional act.  Not sure how sound that is (ha ha unintentional pun), but I might nurse that idea for a bit.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2015 at 18:45
Well, the composer Ilayaraja said even a dog's bark is music and he has composed nearly 2500 tracks of music, and nearly all of it strictly in the conventional melodic tradition, mind.  Maybe the composers, especially a genius like him, can see possibilities in sound that most listeners cannot.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2015 at 19:00
If he takes that bark and composes it into a raga then that is music, otherwise it is just a dog barking. Using the dog bark in that way would be objet trouvé in the same vein as a found poem or a Picasso's bicycle seat bull. A ceramic urinal is not art until an artist (in that example Marcel Duchamp) designates it as such.

Ilayaraja may hear music in any repetitive sound, but it is not music in its own right, it is just sound.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2015 at 19:07
What about bird song? Music or sound?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2015 at 19:08
John Cage had words to say about the whole "What is music?" question. So he composed 4'33" so that he could have a piece of music that is purely whatever random noise just happens during those four and a half minutes.

Food for thought.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2015 at 22:39
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

If he takes that bark and composes it into a raga then that is music, otherwise it is just a dog barking. Using the dog bark in that way would be objet trouvé in the same vein as a found poem or a Picasso's bicycle seat bull. A ceramic urinal is not art until an artist (in that example Marcel Duchamp) designates it as such.

Ilayaraja may hear music in any repetitive sound, but it is not music in its own right, it is just sound.
 
It is a little in between based on his actual application of the thought expressed there. There is a song where he used the sounds of buffalos bellowing, goats bleating and roosters crowing, all as a backdrop to vocals delivered by a singer. Many of these sounds are bent into melodic shape using, I think, synths but some are also used in their pure 'unmusical' form. The point being the momentary interlude of non music is accepted by an audience already prepared by the preceding music as well as visuals of a village simpleton playing with the livestock to accept the intrusion of such sounds. In other words the context decides what the audience perceives as music. This MAY have been what Cage also wanted to establish.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2015 at 01:02
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

If he takes that bark and composes it into a raga then that is music, otherwise it is just a dog barking. Using the dog bark in that way would be objet trouvé in the same vein as a found poem or a Picasso's bicycle seat bull. A ceramic urinal is not art until an artist (in that example Marcel Duchamp) designates it as such.

Ilayaraja may hear music in any repetitive sound, but it is not music in its own right, it is just sound.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2015 at 03:51
Originally posted by Lear'sFool Lear'sFool wrote:

John Cage had words to say about the whole "What is music?" question. So he composed 4'33" so that he could have a piece of music that is purely whatever random noise just happens during those four and a half minutes.

Food for thought.


Although that's not implausible, the conventional wisdom about 4'33 is that it was composed purely to illustrate the 'impossibility of silence'. Cage got the idea after he went into an anechoic chamber expecting to hear nothing, but instead he heard the pumping of his own blood and the normally inaudible sound of his internal organs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2015 at 05:17
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

If he takes that bark and composes it into a raga then that is music, otherwise it is just a dog barking. Using the dog bark in that way would be objet trouvé in the same vein as a found poem or a Picasso's bicycle seat bull. A ceramic urinal is not art until an artist (in that example Marcel Duchamp) designates it as such.

Ilayaraja may hear music in any repetitive sound, but it is not music in its own right, it is just sound.
 
It is a little in between based on his actual application of the thought expressed there. There is a song where he used the sounds of buffalos bellowing, goats bleating and roosters crowing, all as a backdrop to vocals delivered by a singer. Many of these sounds are bent into melodic shape using, I think, synths but some are also used in their pure 'unmusical' form. The point being the momentary interlude of non music is accepted by an audience already prepared by the preceding music as well as visuals of a village simpleton playing with the livestock to accept the intrusion of such sounds. In other words the context decides what the audience perceives as music. This MAY have been what Cage also wanted to establish.
I tend to agree with the notion that context is everything, and that is also related to intent and interpretation. All three are required. Found Art, whether that is visual, sonic or literary only becomes Art with the intention of the Artist to create something from it, the context in which it is placed and the interpretation of that by the observer. For example: "If you tie hair into a ponytail or half ponytail with a hair tie, your braid will be easier to handle and turn out a little neater." is a piece of found text that can be arranged into a found poem by breaking down the phrases in the text into a rhythmic pattern:

If you tie hair 
Into a ponytail 
Or half ponytail 
With a hair tie, 
Your braid will be 
Easier to handle 
And turn out 
A little neater. 

And the Poet can add to, and subtract from, that if they so wish to make it scan or fit a particular meter.

As I sit here typing this I can hear the sound of a buzz-saw, it is an ambient sound that is sonorous but atonal and arrhythmic so it is not musical, however I could record it and make it music through intention. I do not even have to record it - just by reading this text you can imagine the sound that I can hear. If I put that sound into a context, for example by observing that it is being operated in a neighbour's garden as he prepares logs for his log burning stove, then it becomes a soundtrack to an activity that has a contextual meaning that exists without you having to physically observe him sawing through tree branches. From this you can imagine the felling of trees and the stacking of cut logs and that creates a mental picture in each of us of the person using the saw, what the saw could look like and even perhaps the stove they are destined for, and this is without you being able to hear the sound that I can hear. Even if I did not put that sound into a context the listener could have created one of their own based upon the various uses a buzz-saw could be put to, the sound itself is enough to create a context. The interpretation of sound (and thus music) draws upon our memories and knowledge and how we interpret it determines our appreciation of it.

Composers like Ilayaraja, John Cage, Alvin Luicier and Luc Ferrari who maintain that music is all around us are inviting us to hear what they have heard and either put it into a context they have created or create one of our own, and interpret those sounds within that context. This, I would argue, is what all composers do. Whether you regard electro-acoustic music as music is a matter of definition of what you regard as music, however, because of the involvement of a human in creating something from them they are Art. I take the view that ambient environmental sound and animal "song" are not music because they lack intent, context and interpretation, but as soon as a human takes those sounds and uses them they do become music Art.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A few months ago I posted a FB rant on the Quiet Zone carriages on SouthWest Trains - like Iain's comment about Cage's reaction to being in an anechoic chamber (I have experienced that myself, it is disconcerting to say the least) - the concept of a Quiet Zone on a train is self-defeating, they can never be devoid of sound and under those conditions our hearing becomes even more sensitive so that the sound of your fellow passengers breathing becomes a source of annoyance - a Quiet Zone carriage will never be quiet enough.


Edited by Dean - January 30 2015 at 05:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2015 at 05:55
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

What about bird song? Music or sound?
I would (and have) argue that is it sound but not music, however, some of it is musical, (for example it is hard to call the sound of rooks and crows as musical).

In another thread somewhere I postulated that all human music is based upon a pentatonic scale- that is, music from every culture throughout history shares a common harmonic relationship of tones even though they differ in absolute pitch and tuning. These five notes work well with each other because they are harmonious with each other (i.e., the interaction between them creates beat-notes that are harmonically related) - this relationship is mathematical and predictable (i.e., it is scientific). Our ears interpret this relationship as harmonious and thus musical. A composer and/or musician uses this musical scale to create music, however the scale itself is not music.

Some bird-song also exhibits this pentatonic relationship due to the same "science" - two tones played together create beat-tones that are mathematically related to the original two. (sin(X) + sin (Y) = 2(sin((X+Y)÷2) × cos((X-Y)÷2))). Therefore to our ears this bird-song sounds musical because it is a sequence of harmonic tones that resembles the music created by a musician, but it is not music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2015 at 06:18
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

What about bird song? Music or sound?
I would (and have) argue that is it sound but not music, however, some of it is musical, (for example it is hard to call the sound of rooks and crows as musical).

In another thread somewhere I postulated that all human music is based upon a pentatonic scale- that is, music from every culture throughout history shares a common harmonic relationship of tones even though they differ in absolute pitch and tuning. These five notes work well with each other because they are harmonious with each other (i.e., the interaction between them creates beat-notes that are harmonically related) - this relationship is mathematical and predictable (i.e., it is scientific). Our ears interpret this relationship as harmonious and thus musical. A composer and/or musician uses this musical scale to create music, however the scale itself is not music.

Some bird-song also exhibits this pentatonic relationship due to the same "science" - two tones played together create beat-tones that are mathematically related to the original two. (sin(X) + sin (Y) = 2(sin((X+Y)÷2) × cos((X-Y)÷2))). Therefore to our ears this bird-song sounds musical because it is a sequence of harmonic tones that resembles the music created by a musician, but it is not music.


As is the norm, a very informative post. Please don't think I'm splitting hairs but when you say 'harmonious' do you mean 'aesthetically appealing' to a human listener due to the mathematical basis of the intervals deployed? i.e. say 3rds, 5ths and octaves which don't produce any meddlesome waveform distortions. Or, do we consider those relationships that can be defined as 'demonstrable dissonance' based on beat note intervals that don't qualify as 'harmonious' might constitute erm.. lesser music?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2015 at 07:12
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:



As is the norm, a very informative post. Please don't think I'm splitting hairs but when you say 'harmonious' do you mean 'aesthetically appealing' to a human listener due to the mathematical basis of the intervals deployed? i.e. say 3rds, 5ths and octaves which don't produce any meddlesome waveform distortions. Or, do we consider those relationships that can be defined as 'demonstrable dissonance' based on beat note intervals that don't qualify as 'harmonious' might constitute erm.. lesser music?
'Harmonious' is by definition 'pleasant sounding' so it is what is aesthetically pleasing to our ears, the mathematical relationship is an after-the-event analysis of why that is so. This harmonic relationship was derived empirically by what sounded pleasant and the mathematics are merely the scientific explanation. I have speculated before that this is physiological due to how our ears convert acoustic waves into electrical signals to send to the brain for interpretation. Notes that are not of this simple sequence are not necessarily dissonant, they can be consonant (i.e. imperfect consonance).

With regard to 'demonstrable dissonance', I would not use lesser/greater (or even better/worse) but just different, or if pushed, more complicated. Harmonious is not just two notes played together it also relates to notes played in sequence, so there is a time/memory dimension involved. Dissonance works in this sequential time dimension too, as dissonant tones are a natural consequence of key changes (for example) and it is how this dissonance is resolved over time that affects our aesthetic appreciation of the note sequence or phrase. Dissonance can be used well or it can be used poorly, but used well it adds interest and tension, in this respect dissonance is seen as transitional (towards a resolution).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2015 at 08:25
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

If he takes that bark and composes it into a raga then that is music, otherwise it is just a dog barking. Using the dog bark in that way would be objet trouvé in the same vein as a found poem or a Picasso's bicycle seat bull. A ceramic urinal is not art until an artist (in that example Marcel Duchamp) designates it as such.

Ilayaraja may hear music in any repetitive sound, but it is not music in its own right, it is just sound.
 
It is a little in between based on his actual application of the thought expressed there. There is a song where he used the sounds of buffalos bellowing, goats bleating and roosters crowing, all as a backdrop to vocals delivered by a singer. Many of these sounds are bent into melodic shape using, I think, synths but some are also used in their pure 'unmusical' form. The point being the momentary interlude of non music is accepted by an audience already prepared by the preceding music as well as visuals of a village simpleton playing with the livestock to accept the intrusion of such sounds. In other words the context decides what the audience perceives as music. This MAY have been what Cage also wanted to establish.
I tend to agree with the notion that context is everything, and that is also related to intent and interpretation. All three are required. Found Art, whether that is visual, sonic or literary only becomes Art with the intention of the Artist to create something from it, the context in which it is placed and the interpretation of that by the observer. For example: "If you tie hair into a ponytail or half ponytail with a hair tie, your braid will be easier to handle and turn out a little neater." is a piece of found text that can be arranged into a found poem by breaking down the phrases in the text into a rhythmic pattern:

If you tie hair 
Into a ponytail 
Or half ponytail 
With a hair tie, 
Your braid will be 
Easier to handle 
And turn out 
A little neater. 

And the Poet can add to, and subtract from, that if they so wish to make it scan or fit a particular meter.

As I sit here typing this I can hear the sound of a buzz-saw, it is an ambient sound that is sonorous but atonal and arrhythmic so it is not musical, however I could record it and make it music through intention. I do not even have to record it - just by reading this text you can imagine the sound that I can hear. If I put that sound into a context, for example by observing that it is being operated in a neighbour's garden as he prepares logs for his log burning stove, then it becomes a soundtrack to an activity that has a contextual meaning that exists without you having to physically observe him sawing through tree branches. From this you can imagine the felling of trees and the stacking of cut logs and that creates a mental picture in each of us of the person using the saw, what the saw could look like and even perhaps the stove they are destined for, and this is without you being able to hear the sound that I can hear. Even if I did not put that sound into a context the listener could have created one of their own based upon the various uses a buzz-saw could be put to, the sound itself is enough to create a context. The interpretation of sound (and thus music) draws upon our memories and knowledge and how we interpret it determines our appreciation of it.

Composers like Ilayaraja, John Cage, Alvin Luicier and Luc Ferrari who maintain that music is all around us are inviting us to hear what they have heard and either put it into a context they have created or create one of our own, and interpret those sounds within that context. This, I would argue, is what all composers do. Whether you regard electro-acoustic music as music is a matter of definition of what you regard as music, however, because of the involvement of a human in creating something from them they are Art. I take the view that ambient environmental sound and animal "song" are not music because they lack intent, context and interpretation, but as soon as a human takes those sounds and uses them they do become music Art.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A few months ago I posted a FB rant on the Quiet Zone carriages on SouthWest Trains - like Iain's comment about Cage's reaction to being in an anechoic chamber (I have experienced that myself, it is disconcerting to say the least) - the concept of a Quiet Zone on a train is self-defeating, they can never be devoid of sound and under those conditions our hearing becomes even more sensitive so that the sound of your fellow passengers breathing becomes a source of annoyance - a Quiet Zone carriage will never be quiet enough.

Great comment and I completely agree.  I do not think Ilayaraja claimed the pure sound of a dog's bark was music (i.e. without being fitted into a composition in some manner) but that he was too parsimonious with words to elaborate on the bald statement.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2015 at 09:49
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ In that case may I add trucks that drive in the fast lane? ... You have trucks driving parallel to each other on the fast and the slow lane. I'm not surprised why we in Reno get heavy clogging every morning of a business day.

One of the major causes of motorway tailbacks imo. One lorry in the inside lane doing 56mph, another lorry in the middle lane trying to overtake it uphill at 56.0001mph so everyone has to go in the outside to get round them. 


Ah yes - Elephant Racing!

You forgot the last one of the unholy trinity - an ancient Volvo with a huge caravan in the outside lane doing 56.00025 mph trying to overtake them both

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2015 at 08:40
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