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Teaflax View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2006 at 00:31
Which BTW is a stupis stereotype because you will find more ballalaika players than fiddlers).

Well, gee, why do you think I chose it as a counter to YOUR stupid stereotype?


Well, record industry manages very well to find 10 or 20 rappers per week.

And at least as many new Rock bands or any other kind of act they're looking for. WHat is your point, exactly?

Grove without melody and well developed harmonies means nothing at all.

And some would say melody and harmonies without groove mean nothing at all. The point is still not about your presonal preference, but whether or not this is something anyone can do, and you have no case for that, I fear.

 
Well I listen at least 20 new reggaeton artists (Variation inspired in reggae and rap) and all suck, but they can play as bnad as any average rapper.

And what on EARTH does that have to do with how easy it is to play Iron Man, or many other highly respected Rock tunes?

 
And you don't believe Rap is predictable?????? Endless repetition of one or two chords with a guy SPEAKING FAST ad nauseam?? I find that much more predictable.

I don't know what it is you've heard, but a good rap pushes, pulles and changes phrasing, emphasis and rhyme scheme throughout. I defy you to rap along to something as mainstream as The Real Slim Shady (as we've mentioned it before, and you should eb able to find it easily) even with a lyric sheet in front of and three runthroughs.

Anyways, you're free to feel Rap sucks (just like I freely think that Springsteen and Live suck), but it's silly to think it's any easier than it is to play yer average everyday Pop/Rock.
 
If there are thousands of rappers that manage to release an album and sell a lot, and only a bunch of Rock bands that achieve the same success, I must assume that's easier.

What do you base this on? Which thousands of rappers? Against which few bands? Even if you were to find more rappers than Rock bands in the charts at any one time, that only tells you the genre is more popular.

Here is the UK singles chart for this week:

1
Sandi Thom
I Wish I Was A Punk Rocker

2    
Gnarls Barkley
Crazy

3    
Keane
Is It Any Wonder

4    
Infernal
From Paris To Berlin

5
Pink
Who Knew

6        
Ronan Keating & Kate Rusby
All Over Again

7    
Oakenfold Ft Brittany Murphy
Faster Kill Pussycat

8        
Nelly Furtado
Maneater

9    
LL Cool J Ft Jennifer Lopez
Control Myself

10        
Primal Scream
Country Girl


That's two Rap tunes, four Pop vocalists, two Rock bands and two Dance tunes, both with non sampled singing.  It seems those thusands of rappers haven't had much impact on the chart this week, eh? Maybe it's a June slump, or something. The following ten spots hold only two more rappers, one of which is a guest on an RnB tune, and three proper bands, one singer/songwriter and a classic crooner (the smooth Tony Christie). In the following twenty songs, there are no more than four rappers and eight or so "proper" bands. All interspersed with some novelty tunes, trashy Techno, etc.

Oh, and as for complexity, if Primal Scream's Country Girl took more than three minutes to write they're either daft or lazy. It's not even a song - it's like a sketch for a basic idea for a song. I'd much rather hear someone with skill perform something he does well than listen to that dross.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2006 at 02:04
Originally posted by Teaflax Teaflax wrote:

Which BTW is a stupis stereotype because you will find more ballalaika players than fiddlers).

Well, gee, why do you think I chose it as a counter to YOUR stupid stereotype?


That was exactly my point, you can't use stupid sterotypes, but if you use them let them at least be related o the country.

And at least as many new Rock bands or any other kind of act they're looking for. WHat is your point, exactly?

Again, that's my point Record Industry invest more in rap musicians, it's cheaper and you have thousands of them, they don't search for good Rock bands anymore.

And some would say melody and harmonies without groove mean nothing at all. The point is still not about your presonal preference, but whether or not this is something anyone can do, and you have no case for that, I fear.

That's not musically correct, there is a lot of music, classical and popular without groove, but very few expressions without melody.

And what on EARTH does that have to do with how easy it is to play Iron Man, or many other highly respected Rock tunes?

Because this mediocre pseudo musicians sing the same tracks as famous rap artists at least with the same terrible quality IMO.

I don't know what it is you've heard, but a good rap pushes, pulles and changes phrasing, emphasis and rhyme scheme throughout. I defy you to rap along to something as mainstream as The Real Slim Shady (as we've mentioned it before, and you should eb able to find it easily) even with a lyric sheet in front of and three runthroughs.

First don't dare me to rap anything, because I'm not a rapper, never tried and never will.

And again thoise mysterious good rappers everybody talks about but nobody mentions.

What do you base this on? Which thousands of rappers? Against which few bands? Even if you were to find more rappers than Rock bands in the charts at any one time, that only tells you the genre is more popular.

Just check any TV program from USA by cable, any sit comedy, anyy musical program, even MTV and you'll see all are gull of mnediocre rappers.


Here is the UK singles chart for this week:

1
That's two Rap tunes, four Pop vocalists, two Rock bands and two Dance tunes, both with non sampled singing.  It seems those thusands of rappers haven't had much impact on the chart this week, eh? Maybe it's a June slump, or something. The following ten spots hold only two more rappers, one of which is a guest on an RnB tune, and three proper bands, one singer/songwriter and a classic crooner (the smooth Tony Christie). In the following twenty songs, there are no more than four rappers and eight or so "proper" bands. All interspersed with some novelty tunes, trashy Techno, etc.
  1. I'm not talking about UK, where Rap is not remotely as popular as USA,
  2. There may be thousands of rappers that sell enough to feed the musical industry,  but not necessarilly will reach the charts.
  3. This even makes my point stronger, they are so bad that this thousand of Rap musicians don't even reach the mediocre Pop 40 tracks despite they will kill for this.


Oh, and as for complexity, if  Primal Scream's Country Girl took more than three minutes to write they're either daft or lazy. It's not even a song - it's like a sketch for a basic idea for a song. I'd much rather hear someone with skill perform something he does well than listen to that dross.

Why should I care for an alternative House Dance band? I rather listen ELP, Yes. Genesis that listen that kind of music...So....What's your point using this poor example?

It's funny, when I quote you I use all your post, you avoid cenral parts of mine, good strategy.

Iván
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 05 2006 at 02:07
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2006 at 02:25
Ivan, you say that it's easy to just be a rapper, and that tons of them are being churned out at a ridiculous rate.  Is this not also true of generic mainstream rock bands?  As even Teaflax has admitted during the course of this discussion, most rap is admittedly trash.  Nobody here is trying to convince you that 50 Cent and the other rap you would hear on the radio is any form of artistic genius, all we're saying is that you need to look beyond the surface.  The way you're looking at rap is the equivalent to if somebody took the Arctic Monkeys, The Strokes, The Libertines and whichever other generic rock acts are popular right now and declared on the basis of those that "rock music has no validity as an art form".  It's true that there are tons of generic gansta-rap artists polluting the music industry, and it's true that now pretty much any stupid kid in high school now believes he can become the next generic gangsta-rap artist and fancies himself one, but is this not equally true of rock?  Have there not been COUNTLESS awful garage bands formed by people with absolutely nothing to contribute creatively to their form of music?

What we're saying is that you need to look further, into the rap artists we don't all hear about.  I know that pretty much none of the modern rock bands you appreciate (if any at all) would be known beyond a very small group of serious fans, why should rap be any different?  I'm no specialist on the rap scene, but the artists people have already been mentioning are all extremely valid examples of how there's plenty of creative rap buried within the overflowing gangsta atrocity that takes up most of the genre.  You could argue that these artists are too rare to really be worthy of using in an argument, but I'd say the proportions are about the same as they would be with rock.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2006 at 02:53
Ivan, I only edited to make it a bit briefer, and maybe to spare you an embarrasment or two, but I see now that that is certainly pointless. As for the centrality, I will avoid quoting anything this time, so you won't feel hard done by.

So, you're simultaneously arguing that there's A) loads of awful rap infesting the music biz, and B) but that it's so bad it doesn't reach the charts. Seems the music industry is shooting themselves in the foot, then, putting out all this stuff that doesn't sell. Also, who gives a toss what's in the US charts? They've been a worse quagmire of total crappitude than the UK charts for decades - at least in the UK, something interesting and qualitative (and even lower-p progressive) does rear its head from time to time.

And, oh dear,  Primal Scream is not a House band, never have been - they incorporated some dance elements on one album ten years ago, or something. Country Girl is a Rawk n Roll tune if ever there was one, as all their releases in the last decade have been. Like The Rolling Stones with a lobotomy (yeah, that bad).

It goes back to the same argument I'm making with Iron Man; how easy it is to play basic Rock n Roll, okay? (and more specifially in the case of Country Girl, how incredibly easy it must have been to write). Judge for yourself. That's where your sudden dragging in of Reggaeton is absolutely baffling.

I have mentioned several good rappers, earlier in this thread. And you won't try rapping because...? If it's so bloomin' easy - and I'm not even asking you to create anything, just replicate what is already there - it really should be a breeze. Right? Are ye scared, lad?

And I have to say that "that is not musically correct" is a hilarious comeback. There are plenty of non-tonal, non-harmonic purely percussive forms of music from Japanese taiko drumming to the drums of Burundi (the latter is such a cultural force in Burundi they have a drum on their flag) and absolutely tons where rhythm is the major element.

Any program from the USA or sitcom? Let me see...I watch Lost, Arrested Development (RIP), Scrubs, The Office, Rome, Law & Order, Law & Order: CI, CSI, Battlestar Galactica and Thief. There might have been some Rap in the background of the last one, but not a note of it in any of the others. Care to try again, Mr Generalize Without Proof?

My point is that you're tilting at the wrong windmill. Complacency and narrow-mindedness are the two major threats music faces, not whether someone sings or not, or if the emphasis is on rhythm over melody. Yes, I too prefer Yes and Genesis to...well any rapper, even the bestest ones in the whole world - but that doesn't mean that I cannot appreciate the considerable accomplishments of someone like Jean Grae who does five different rap styles as a one-woman possee in The Herbaliser's single Generals. (Note that the styles are pastiche, but all rhythmically more intricate than a Wakeman Moog solo - the second one, "Cheech Marina", is my favorite) You may not like it, but you're just being silly if you cannot acknowledge that a great measure of skill has gone into devising, creating and performing in five distinct styles and voices in one song.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2006 at 12:18
Originally posted by Teaflax Teaflax wrote:

Ivan, I only edited to make it a bit briefer, and maybe to spare you an embarrasment or two, but I see now that that is certainly pointless. As for the centrality, I will avoid quoting anything this time, so you won't feel hard done by.
 
Thank you for being so gentle, that's why people love you so much, because you're usually so comprehenful...BAH...You don't quote what you can't answer.

Don't spare me nothing pal, I have debated here with people that has more solid arguments than your's, and people like Certified or Bryan that are a real challenge. You may scare newbies as you have done before being rude and self indulgent, but don't try it with me, you won't succeed. 

So, you're simultaneously arguing that there's A) loads of awful rap infesting the music biz, and B) but that it's so bad it doesn't reach the charts. Seems the music industry is shooting themselves in the foot, then, putting out all this stuff that doesn't sell. Also, who gives a toss what's in the US charts? They've been a worse quagmire of total crappitude than the UK charts for decades - at least in the UK, something interesting and qualitative (and even lower-p progressive) does rear its head from time to time.

A track doesn't need to reach the charts to be business for a label, with only a cou´ple million copies is enough to make business.

And, oh dear,  Primal Scream is not a House band, never have been - they incorporated some dance elements on one album ten years ago, or something. Country Girl is a Rawk n Roll tune if ever there was one, as all their releases in the last decade have been. Like The Rolling Stones with a lobotomy (yeah, that bad)
 
Anyway I never heard or cared for that band, it's described in Allmusic as Dance, Techno and Dance, you can check www.allmusic.com if you don't trust them you can check Musicmatch or Artist Direct, all say exactly the same, but probably you know better than the rest of the world

It goes back to the same argument I'm making with Iron Man; how easy it is to play basic Rock n Roll, okay? (and more specifially in the case of Country Girl, how incredibly easy it must have been to write). Judge for yourself. That's where your sudden dragging in of Reggaeton is absolutely baffling.
 
Who are you? or better Who you believe you are? your opinions are 100% valid and what all the rest of the world thinks ois wrong? I've seen Reggaeton artists making cover versions of Eminem and a lot of Rap artists, that's my point.

I have mentioned several good rappers, earlier in this thread. And you won't try rapping because...? If it's so bloomin' easy - and I'm not even asking you to create anything, just replicate what is already there - it really should be a breeze. Right? Are ye scared, lad?
 
I'm not a singer, I smoke a package a day, I can't rap, but I can't sing any Rock song either. So what does this proves?

And I have to say that "that is not musically correct" is a hilarious comeback. There are plenty of non-tonal, non-harmonic purely percussive forms of music from Japanese taiko drumming to the drums of Burundi (the latter is such a cultural force in Burundi they have a drum on their flag) and absolutely tons where rhythm is the major element.
 
Yeah and there's Tibetian Yodeling, and purely percussive fotrms of music in Africa, but they escape to the general rule.

Most musical forms you mention are specific ethnic or fok forms of expression that escape to the paramethers of music in many cases, but Rap is a popular genre that ofteh tops USA charts, so they should have at least some musicality that I can't find.



Any program from the USA or sitcom? Let me see...I watch Lost, Arrested Development (RIP), Scrubs, The Office, Rome, Law & Order, Law & Order: CI, CSI, Battlestar Galactica and Thief. There might have been some Rap in the background of the last one, but not a note of it in any of the others. Care to try again, Mr Generalize Without Proof?
 
Since when are Law & Order, Battlestar Gallactica, Rome, CSGI, Arrested Development, The Office soitcoms?????
 
Don't expect to find rap in a futuristic Sci Fi or legal shoiw too much rap.
 
BTW: I seen rap artists more than once in Scrubs.


My point is that you're tilting at the wrong windmill. Complacency and narrow-mindedness are the two major threats music faces, not whether someone sings or not, or if the emphasis is on rhythm over melody. Yes, I too prefer Yes and Genesis to...well any rapper, even the bestest ones in the whole world - but that doesn't mean that I cannot appreciate the considerable accomplishments of someone like Jean Grae who does five different rap styles as a one-woman possee in The Herbaliser's single Generals. (Note that the styles are pastiche, but all rhythmically more intricate than a Wakeman Moog solo - the second one, "Cheech Marina", is my favorite) You may not like it, but you're just being silly if you cannot acknowledge that a great measure of skill has gone into devising, creating and performing in five distinct styles and voices in one song.
 
Well I don't appreciate any form of rap that I heard untiol today, all are IMO repetitive forms of poetry that use one single chord (Usually copied wihout authorization of the real artist) that prove no talent.

If you like Cheech Marina or Lean Grae you are free to listen them, for me are just some form of cheap poetry that has little relation with music.

Iván
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2006 at 16:07
Just this before I give up; do you honestly believe that an album or single that doesn't make it into the charts could possibly sell "a couple of million" copies, or are you exaggerating wildly for effect?

In the US, you need sales of a half a milion to reach gold record status, in the UK 300 000 is platinum. But I guess you think that gold and platinum record awards are being handed out left and right to artists who never make it into the charts.

And since you obviously don't read what I actually write (if you did, you would know that Jean Grae and Cheech Marina are one and the same), I'll just drop it, except to repeat this; biggest threat to music: complacency and narrow-mindedness. You've got at least one of those in spades.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2006 at 16:15
Originally posted by Teaflax Teaflax wrote:

Kanye West is safe, dumbed-down mainstream crap with a veneer of sophistication that's as fake as Bruce Springsteen's "working man" image. There is so much more inetersting stuff going on in the underground, and pleanty of rappers who are much, much better than he is.

Jean Grae. No one can touch her - that's the first thing you need to know.

Quasimoto/Madlib/Yeterday's New Quintet, Dr Octagon/Kool Keith, MF Doom, Aesop Rock, RJD2, Innerstance Beatbox, DJ Shadow and many more are far more creative and progressive than the safe, cross-overy blandness of Kanye.


Clap for Dr Octagon, MF Doom and above all, the great DJ Shadow!

 I haven't heard the others, but I will check them out when I get a chance.  hip-hop has just as much potential to be progressive as rock does IMO, it's just a sad fact that most of it and its culture do not want to progress.

May I also recommend: Dalek and Beam, for those who doubt.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2006 at 19:10
Originally posted by Teaflax Teaflax wrote:

Just this before I give up; do you honestly believe that an album or single that doesn't make it into the charts could possibly sell "a couple of million" copies, or are you exaggerating wildly for effect?

In the US, you need sales of a half a milion to reach gold record status, in the UK 300 000 is platinum. But I guess you think that gold and platinum record awards are being handed out left and right to artists who never make it into the charts.

And since you obviously don't read what I actually write (if you did, you would know that Jean Grae and Cheech Marina are one and the same), I'll just drop it, except to repeat this; biggest threat to music: complacency and narrow-mindedness. You've got at least one of those in spades.
 
 
I'm sensing some hostility here...Angry...I do think "wrap" sucks, at least the stuff that I've heard. Then again, I haven't really sought it out either (based on the aforementioned sucky exposure), so it's entirely possible that there's better material out there & I haven't tripped over it yet...Have heard some Kanye W though (see my prior comment of two sentences ago)...
 
Anyone who "samples" another's work w/o permission & releases it as part of their own "new" release is no friend of mine...AngryAngry...Unfortunately, although this applies to anyone, the wrap & hip hop establishments seem to have chosen this path far too often...AngryAngryAngry
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2006 at 20:23
It's true that a lot of rap, particularly in the mainstream, and particularly after the success of Puff Daddy and The Fugees (the Kanye West of its time; critically acclaimed, but actually quite vapid), use samples as a way of just basically doing a cover version with the verse removed and (often very bad) rapping stuck in there. This is just pointless.

But using samples to create something that is actually new, like for instance Coldcut or Lionrock do, is perfectly valid. Collage is a valid form of visual art, so why shouldn't that be the case for music? The problem comes when you use a sample and do not add anything significant to it - then you are riding on the coattails of the sampled artist, and that's reprehensible. But it's silly to deride sampling as a tool simply because it's often misused.

Also, another refutation of one Ivan's weird statements. Here's the track list for the Scrubs soundtrack CD:
 
1. Superman - Lazlo Bane

2. All In My Head - Shawn Mullins

3. Fresh Feeling - Eels

4. Good Time - Leroy

5. Good Life - Francis Dunnery

6. New Slang - The Shins

7. Beautiful World - Colin Hay

8. Hold On Hope - Guided By Voices

9. Fighting For My Love - Nil Lara

10. Dracula From Houston - Butthole Surfers

11. Hooch - Everything

12. Hallelujah - John Cale

13. Have It All - Jeremy Kay

14. End Credit Score - Jan Stevens

15. Overkill - Colin Hay


Well, what do you know? Not a rapper in sight. All good, solid band or singer/songwriter action, and I recall no Rap ever used in the series, and I think I've seen every episode bar two, and although my memory isn't the very best in the world I think I'd recall if it was a running theme. Hey, they even had The Technicolor Spree as guests in one episode, and they're borderline Prog, and Francis Dunnery used to be in It Bites. Hm, funny old world, isn't it?


Edited by Teaflax - June 05 2006 at 20:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2006 at 22:27
Originally posted by Teaflax Teaflax wrote:

Just this beYfore I give up; do you honestly believe that an album or single that doesn't make it into the charts could possibly sell "a couple of million" copies, or are you exaggerating wildly for effect?
 
In a wide population like USA artists can reach Gold and platuinuum albums but never reach the charts.

In the US, you need sales of a half a milion to reach gold record status, in the UK 300 000 is platinum. But I guess you think that gold and platinum record awards are being handed out left and right to artists who never make it into the charts.
 
First I'm not talking about RAP in UK, only in USA, so please don't insist in using that market in reference to Rap.
 
Again Gold disks are not awards are almost a certificate that they reached a certain number of sales that's all. You may reach a very high number of salesin a lapse of one year and never reach the charts


And since you obviously don't read what I actually write (if you did, you would know that Jean Grae and Cheech Marina are one and the same), I'll just drop it, except to repeat this; biggest threat to music: complacency and narrow-mindedness. You've got at least one of those in spades.
 
You are right I don't know very much about RAP never said it and can't care less about it, except when I read about it in a Progressive Rock site where I believe shouldn't even be mentioned.
 
I just listen a song, the name of the author or any reference the radio makes. If I like it I investigate if I don't like it  (As in the case of Rap) I honestly couldn't care less to investigate who is who.
 
And again it's a paradox to call people who listen the most unpopular of the Rock genres closed minded, call that to all those radi stations and magazines that have ignored and/or atttacked Progressive Rock for 3 decades.
 
Iván
 
BTW: I heard and/or seen Rap performances in Scrubs at leat 3 or 4 times, don't ask me for names because I don't know or care about, neither I know the reason why they didn't oincluded this s tracks in a CD, maybe their target market is not Rap listeners.


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 05 2006 at 22:31
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2006 at 00:00
Big on bluster, thin on facts - and I'm beginning to sense a modus operandi here. You don't take in information and you don't offer information. I have to ask; how old are you, Ivan?

Find me an act - Rap or not - that has sold gold in the US in the last few years without hitting at least the Top 40. Some quick googling shows that a likely figure to creep into the US Top 40 is about 20-25 000 copies sold/week. So, in order to be certain to stay out of the top forty even on a slow week, you need to sell below 15 000 at all times. To make a gold record at that rate takes 66 weeks. More than one year and three months. It takes twice that to make platinum.

This is not taking into account that few records sell steadily and our set peak would be the high mark of what is usually a curve with quite a sharp dropoff after the first few weeks. So, I'm guessing that a gold selelr that never hit the charts would be quite an anomaly.

Or is there a mythical subset of Rap - or any other music - that sells in steady, fairly small streams for more than a year without ever getting much exposure? A dark underbely of music that no one knows about but that's making the record companies millions of dollars? I find it unlikely, and it certainly isn't how record companies are making money off of Rap music, which seems to be your rather baffling point.

I know what you'll say now; it costs nothing to make a Rap album. That's neither here nor there. The production costs are  - to the label, if not the artist - a very minor part of costs involved. PR, manufacturing and distribution probably account for 90% of the cost.

The way record companies operate is they sign twenty acts, toss them out there, see what sticks and dump the nineteen that don't sell. They don't support acts that don't chart for very long - they used to, but that was decades ago.

Also, as far as Scrubs goes, it's certainly not an anomaly. Pretty much every big sitcom from the last ten years is entirely Rap free; Everybody Loves Raymond, Frasier, Seinfeld, Friends, The King of Queens, Two and a Half Men, The World According to Jim, Spin City, Ellen, Dharma and Greg, Will & Grace, The Office, My Name is Earl, etc. Care to try again?

By the way, here's a complete listing of the music in Scrubs, knock yourself out. I saw nothing Raplike in Season 5, and I couldn't be bothered to go through more - it's your prerogative to find the facts to support your statement. Suffice it to say that if you do find one or two, they're in quite a minority position.

Prog has most certainly gotten a bad rap (heh) throughout the years, that's indubitable. The fact that it doesn't have the slightest bearing on what it is we're arguing seems to not deter you, however.

Let's review:

You claim thousands of rappers release albums and sell a lot, and very few rock bands do. Evidently, you only allow the US charts to prove this, although that was never made clear until you were proven wrong. Currently on the Billboard chart's top ten there are four rap-related songs, two of which have rappers only guesting on "actual" songs. There are 17 in the following forty, four of which are similar guest appearances. I admit, that is quite a lot, but not the flood you claim. Its less than half, and only 30% if you count only "pure" Rap, rather than guest appearances.

As for your indignation about me mentioning non-sitcom shows (pointless, mind you, what with the list above), this is your quote on how much Rap there is on TV: "Just check any TV program from USA by cable, any sitcom, any musical program, even MTV". I listed "any TV program from the US".

But I'll give you one of the things from the quote above (don't let it go to your head); there is one hell of a lot of bad Rap on MTV. And that's why there's MTV2, which plays stuff like Muse, Radiohead and PRR.

Oh, and for the record, The Office is a sitcom.

Facts, Ivan. Ain't they a bitch?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2006 at 01:40
Are you scaping to the peripheric data?
 
Why did you avoid the central point.
 
BTW: Rap artists are cheaper than Rock bands, they release one album, the label squeez them and they leave them to find a new rapper, at the end, you can find a lot of them anywhere.
 
BTW 2: We don't have MTV 2 here, so I can't give an opinion.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 06 2006 at 01:41
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2006 at 02:31
SCRUBS doesn't use Rap tracks??
 
 
Episode 4.01 - "My Old Friend's New Friend"
Scene: J.D. imagines his clock singing (the actual song later repeated as Turk dances around the car).
"Rapper's Delight" by Sugar Hill Gang. Album: various

Episode 4.05 - "Scene: Elliot and Molly school Turk on rap.
"Still DRE" performed by Sarah Chalke and Heather Graham.
Originally by Dr. Dre feat. Snoop Dogg. Album: '2001'

Episode 4.08 - "My Last Chance" Scene: J.D. considers how beer can cause death (background music).
"Bust A Move" by Young MC. Album: 'Stone Cold Rhymin''

 
And only checlked partially the fourth season.

The funny thing is that I don't know as many rap titles as you probably know and could find four in 3 minutes.
 
Facts, Teaflax Ain't they a bitch? Ouch
 
BTW: This thread has already bored me, you can stay with all the rap you want, honestly there's a lot more of better music to worry about and a lot of work to be done.
 
Iván

 





Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 06 2006 at 02:48
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2006 at 03:24
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
BTW: This thread has already bored me

 





You have to blame yourself for that bit.

Mainstream Hip Hop is as awful as mainstream rock. A fantastic, overlooked album from a couple of years ago is: Deep Puddle Dynamics: The Taste of rain...Why Kneel. (contains a multipart suite!) With nine members, all losely connected to the Anticon collective.
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2006 at 06:09
And thou avoidest the central point. Let's see if you can actually find it, Sir "What? It's not that I can't argue the case, I'm just boooored with it". Hint, it is a question involving time spent on planet Earth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2006 at 07:19
"It's true that a lot of rap, particularly in the mainstream, and particularly after the success of Puff Daddy and The Fugees (the Kanye West of its time; critically acclaimed, but actually quite vapid), use samples as a way of just basically doing a cover version with the verse removed and (often very bad) rapping stuck in there. This is just pointless.

But using samples to create something that is actually new, like for instance Coldcut or Lionrock do, is perfectly valid. Collage is a valid form of visual art, so why shouldn't that be the case for music? The problem comes when you use a sample and do not add anything significant to it - then you are riding on the coattails of the sampled artist, and that's reprehensible. But it's silly to deride sampling as a tool simply because it's often misused."
 
 
Yes, but the key to the above is "add anything significant"...I wasn't deriding the sampling process or audio collages, but addressing the ownership & permission angle. If you're using whole musical passages written & owned by other artists, even if you're adding a couple of new elements or lyrics, and not giving credit or getting prior permission to do this it's stealing...Just ask George Harrison (if you could), whose use of another's melody wasn't nearly as blatant as what I'm referring to...
 
Riding other's coattails is a well-established practice in music, so using your same argument re: sampling & collages, why shouldn't that be considered OK as well? It's all a matter of degree really, and a judgement call as to whether the artist has "added anything significant"...
 
Not familiar with Coldcut (sounds like a sandwich ingredient), they may be doing something legit, I don't know...And why not deride methods that're often being misused? Maybe that'll put more of a spotlight on the issue & get some of these questionable acts to stop doing it!Geek
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2006 at 08:40
^You might as well complain about guitars because some people use them to play tunes that are ripped off. That's all I'm saying.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2006 at 12:09
Originally posted by Teaflax Teaflax wrote:

And thou avoidest the central point. Let's see if you can actually find it, Sir "What? It's not that I can't argue the case, I'm just boooored with it". Hint, it is a question involving time spent on planet Earth.
 
 
ClapClapClap Bravo Treaflax, again as you always do when you are proved wrong you change the subject.
 
During three posts you been rubbing on my face the stupid fact that that in a sitcom as Scrubs there was no Rap (You said Raples) but inmediately when I prove you're wrong or lying (Not in your mind so I can't guess) you change the subject, but that is not new in you.
 
You dare to call me close minded but you kept talking crap about Kansas:
 
Teaflax wrote:
Quote When the basic ingredient in the song writing is something that goes intrinsically against the genre, it makes it not entirely of that genre. Is Kansas an AOR/Classic Rock/Rawk band with Symphonic leanings? Abso-damn-lutely. It's got lots of condiments and big slice of melted cheese -  but it's still a pork burger.
 
So, I criticize a non Prog genre in a Prog site but you kept insulting a band most of us love, but because there was no answer so you insisted.
 
Teaflax wrote:
Quote I think Kansas maybe qualifies as Redneck Prog, or something. They need a modifier which sets them apart, because it's such an obvious difference
 
Then I proved you that Kansas made great stuff, but you weren't ready to loose so you changed your argument
 
Teaflax wrote:
Quote So, sorry, while there are certainly many elements that are Pure Prog about Kansas, they will always be a Pork Burger to me.
 
In other words they are good, have great songs, they have pure Prog elements but still crap LOL
 
Then I proved you thatany Symphonic band from any part of the world has differences with British Symphoonic and you VANISHED LOL
 
That's your tactic, we all know it,now you change subject and avoid themes when you're proved wrong, keep on going. Ouch
 
Iván
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2006 at 12:35
Wow. You perform the mother of all irrelevant subject changes in order to accuse me of changing the subject (which I haven't done even once on this thread; it's always been about your inability to deal with various aspects of reality). That's either a meta statement - in which case, bravo - or breathtakingly hypocritical.

You'll note - if you go back and read really carefully this time - that I was smart enough to set up a caveat in the Scrubs section; that it would be in an absolute minority even if you did find some. This was also the case, not least since the music refences you mentioned are not even full featured songs - of which almost every episode of Scrubs contains one, and which would be the only musical content really worth discussing, because it is an editorial choice (as in: "we approve of this music") rather than just an aspect of storytelling. They are instead short snippets used for effect in flashbacks or fantasy sequences. So, your argument about the all-pervasive nature of Rap is not in any way vindicated, nor am I proven wrong.

Sorry.

Also, you never proved anything about Kansas (in fact, I don't remember you proving even one of your wild statements in anyone's mind but your own). Well, okay, you did prove that they had some songs with less vocals, thus being less terrible by default. It really isn't all that narrow-minded to reject something for having major aspects that are too simplistic, mainstream and commercial, I think you'd have to agree.

But, you know, I really shouldn't argue AOR/Soft Rock or the artistic bankruptcy of most Rock with someone who seriously likes Meat Loaf. That's just too mean, even for me. But, hey, if that's your thing, no wonder you like Kansas.

So, tell me again how someone sells millions without charting, and how all sitcoms are full of Rap. Enlighten me as to why it is not "musically correct" to make music that you don't like? Explain also why you can make such cocksure judgements on music when you seem to know awfully little about how it is actually composed and performed? You did claim not to be psychic, after all.

Either way, you crack me up, Iván. Don't take it so bloody seriously, but do try to think things through before you blurt them out, and - please - try to accept when you are proven wrong (and before you get all huffy, you cannot prove me wrong on the almighty suckitude of Kansas, nor can I prove you wrong about the suckiness of Rap - these are matters of taste - let's try to stick to facts, shall we?).


Edited by Teaflax - June 06 2006 at 12:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2006 at 13:03
Last ditch effort to save this thread from total Hellfire and Damnation (i.e. closure at the hands of the admins):

Does anyone have suggestions for good (maybe even progressive?) hip-hop artists?
I'll toss out the fact that our well-respected Avant/RIO homeboy MIKE PATTON recently did an album with the X-ecutioners...Tongue
http://www.myspace.com/altaic
ALTAIC

"Oceans Down You'll Lie"
coming soon
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