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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 20522 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2006 at 06:22
Originally posted by Teaflax Teaflax wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Prog Rock is not a combination of two genres, as "Prog" isn't a genre.
Are you actually saying that "progressive Rock" isn't a genre? That's a minefield you'll have to dance through on your own, thank you.



I said:

"Prog" isn't a genre.

Having trouble reading sentences as simple as that? We're trying to be precise here, so if I write "Prog" in a discussion like this you can be pretty sure that I don't mean "progressive Rock".Wink

Originally posted by Teaflax Teaflax wrote:



But you're right, it's not a hybrid. But I have to wonder how far you need to go "not to lose the Rock". Is there anything on seminal Progressive Rock albums like Foxtrot, Tales, Red or H to He that really sounds in any way like Rock music as defined by Rolling Stones? Is there even a three-second snippet that could be mistaken for a band like that? I'd say the answer is no.


"Rock" does not equal "Rolling Stones". Try to think of the various Rock groups as part of a genre tree with "Rock" as the root element. The Rolling Stones are part of a sub genre which is in an entirely different branch than most Prog Rock groups. But they're growing on the same genre tree in the forest which is music.Wink
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Points: 715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2006 at 06:33
Originally posted by Teaflax Teaflax wrote:

^Except Wyclef makes extremely pandering and chart-oriented music. Fugees were one of the bands that killed innovation in mainstream Hip-hop by making it all about crappy covers andusing old hit samples without adding anything to it but a bad Rap. Plus Wyclef can't Rap for sh*t - he's got as much flow as my Grandma, dead and buried.

That The Fugees (and Lauryn Hill) were briefly the darlings of Rock journalists who'd never heard much actual Rap and could use it as an easy way to seem open-minded doesn't help.

But he does play his own instrument and uses classical music samples! Those are prog rock tendencies.
My music!

"THE AUDIENCE WERE generally drugged. (In Holland, always)." - Robert Fripp
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Teaflax View Drop Down
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Points: 1225 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2006 at 06:44
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

  Try to think of the various Rock groups as part of a genre tree with "Rock" as the root element. The Rolling Stones are part of a sub genre which is in an entirely different branch than most Prog Rock groups. But they're growing on the same genre tree in the forest which is music.
Except that if assessed on purely compositional merits and details, it is much much further from the root of Rock than almost any other branch.

And as noted; if you're going to maintain that Prog (which is shorthand for "Progressive Rock" and nothing else - I have no idea how you're using it) is still firmly attached to the Rock tree, rather than an acorn that has grown into an entirely new plant, then there should be absolutely no need to separate Prog Metal from Progressive Rock, since Metal is just another branch, just like Rock n Roll or AOR.
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 20522 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2006 at 06:51
^ Metal is a really thick branch which separated from Rock in a really early phase. And it contains nearly as many sub branches as the "main" branch of Rock.

I have no problems with Metal as a sub genre of Rock ... but Prog Metal is not a direct sub genre of Prog Rock. First Metal separated from Rock and continued to grow for nearly a decade, until Prog Metal developed from that branch. So technically it is not a child node, but a remote sibling ... something like a cousin. Yet the influence of Prog Rock is so strong that in a way (and leaving the tree model) Prog Metal can be seen as a sub genre of Prog Rock.
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Teaflax View Drop Down
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Points: 1225 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2006 at 07:41
^Right. But regular Rock, Radio Rock and AOR are not separate branches, and thus should be seen as inherent aspects of Progressive Rock, even though few of the originators of the genre used such elements?
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 20522 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2006 at 08:00
^ those are two different questions.

1. Surely these are separate branches - although I'm not sure if I'd call a sub genre of Rock "regular Rock" (it's confusing).
2. A branch can influence another even if they're not part of the same hierarchy ... real life is more complex than a tree model.

The point is: If you model non-prog music as a forest of trees ("Rock", "Pop", "Jazz", "Electronic" etc) and then you'd like to add Prog to this model, introducing another tree labeled "Prog" is not the best solution IMO. Wouldn't it be better to model "Prog" as a part of the Rock tree ... or indeed parts on all these trees, if you see "Prog" as "progressive Rock" (which we all do).

So it's: "Each tree has a few progressive branches" vs. "There is one completely progressive tree with different branches for the various genres, which all have their own tree for the non-progressive stuff".

Phew ... this reminds me of some problems I had to solve for my diploma!LOL
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2006 at 14:56
Both of you have valid points, but the discussion is off-topic. Wink
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Points: 1494 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2006 at 16:27
Originally posted by Root Pepper Root Pepper wrote:

Listen to Deltron 3030 and then tell me you hate rap. This is some of the most progressive music I've heard in ages.
I hate Rap. Although that's better than any other Rap I've heard.
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 20522 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2006 at 02:44
Originally posted by Philéas Philéas wrote:

Both of you have valid points, but the discussion is off-topic. Wink


Not entirely ... in the forest of genre trees which I described there's also an Electronic tree with a Rap branch, and maybe even a tiny Prog twig.LOL
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Australian View Drop Down
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Points: 3278 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2006 at 03:19
Perhaps in 30 years prog rap will be invented.
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