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Points: 15783 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2006 at 14:40
^^ I agree, its my favorite Sabbath album and has prog tendencies but it's far from being prog-metal. You can teach a Sabbath song to a beginner in a few mins. Far too simplistic to be prog metal.
 
 
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Points: 5109 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2006 at 16:39
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:


Originally posted by bhikkhu bhikkhu wrote:

    I consider some of 2112 heavy, but metal? I would agree that Black Sabbath is the first Prog Metal band. I think a lot of their work is more creative than most of the modern stuff I have heard. The new bands may do some amazing instrumentals , and play faster, but how do the compositions themselves stand up?
I don't know what you've heard from BS and modern prog metal, but I'd prefer Pain of Salvation, Symphony X and a ton of other modern bands over BS anytime. And the music on SBS is far too simplistic to ever be considered to be prog metal ...

   If you are talking about the instrumentals, then yes, Sabbath would seem simplistic by comparison. I am talking about the song composition. I haven't heard anything all that complex form modern bands.

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Points: 20521 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2006 at 16:45
^ Well, if you don't see the complexity in Pain of Salvation compositions then I guess we don't have a basis for a meaningful discussion.Embarrassed
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Points: 3928 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2006 at 17:28

I'd not say 'Sabbath Bloody Sabbath' was a prog metal album. There are touches of it on 'Sabbra Cadabra', 'Fluff' and 'Who Are You', but no more so than Led Zeppelin's 'Houses Of The Holy' or Budgie's 'Never Turn Your Back On A Friend' or any of Deep Purple's 70s albums, to name a few. The metal or rock outweighs the progressive content on all of these.

IMHO, the first 'prog metal' album was Judas Priest's 'Sad Wings Of Destiny'. The songs are all quite complex and layered, whilst being pretty heavy and dramatic. IMO, it's quite possibly the best heavy metal album I've ever heard and I couldn't imagine many topping it.
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Points: 20521 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2006 at 18:23
Perhaps I'm just too young. "Metal" has nothing to do with "Classic Metal", as funny as it may sound.

I'd call Sad Wings of Destiny a prog related album (barely), but it's not a metal album.
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Points: 293 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2006 at 22:17
Im not sure what your basing that on Mike. Classic Metal has influenced many modern bands, alot of them play in a classic style for example Oroduin, Life Beyond, The Sword, Doomraiserm Cellador, Dragonforce, Mystic Prophecy etc.
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Points: 5109 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2006 at 22:45
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Perhaps I'm just too young. "Metal" has nothing to do with "Classic Metal", as funny as it may sound.I'd call Sad Wings of Destiny a prog related album (barely), but it's not a metal album.

    
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Points: 20521 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2006 at 03:00
Originally posted by bhikkhu bhikkhu wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Perhaps I'm just too young. "Metal" has nothing to do with "Classic Metal", as funny as it may sound.I'd call Sad Wings of Destiny a prog related album (barely), but it's not a metal album.

    
Kids today ...


I just mean that people who are today younger than 40 years were not around when Classic Metal was emerging. In their youth bands like Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, Slayer were emerging, and these bands changed metal so much that it really became a different genre than Rock. And in retrospect bands like (early) Black Sabbath and Judas Priest sound much more like Rock than the Metal we're used to.

That is why I make a distinction between Classic Metal and Modern Metal ... of course there are modern bands which play like the classic ones, but even the "True Metal" bands like for example Manowar have been influenced by the mid-1980s metal "revolution".
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Points: 1230 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2006 at 23:47
HIGH TIDE - Sea Shanties
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Points: 20521 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2006 at 03:06
Originally posted by con safo con safo wrote:

HIGH TIDE - Sea Shanties


ok, let's settle this once and for all: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26350&PID=2089479#2089479Wink
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Points: 6699 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2006 at 17:10
I don't see a single bit of Prog Metal in Black Sabbath at all.  Prog Metal is not just metal with keyboards, there are plenty of other genres.

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Points: 7659 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2006 at 17:51
Don't you forget about ... Atomic Rooster, you can even ask the Eighties metal bands themselves about their main inspiration!
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Points: 2537 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2006 at 18:00
Originally posted by erik neuteboom erik neuteboom wrote:

Don't you forget about ... Atomic Rooster, you can even ask the Eighties metal bands themselves about their main inspiration!
 
Wasn´t one of the guys in Atomic Rooster supposed to be a satanist? I think he said this himself.
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Points: 7659 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2006 at 18:03
I won't be surprised, it's part of the dark side of that genre Evil Smile ... !
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Points: 871 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2006 at 19:17
Thank you for mentioning Atomic Rooster. I was beginning to wonder if these kiddies know ANYTHING.
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Points: 293 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2006 at 00:00

yeah I forgot about them, I suppose the thing with them is that they are more like hard rock, influencial on metal but not metal themselves.
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Points: 293 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2006 at 00:01

yeah I forgot about them, I suppose the thing with them is that they are more like hard rock, influencial on metal but not metal themselves.
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Points: 871 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2006 at 01:42
Well thats the point. Heavy riffs, dark sounds, but with musical quality. I personally love Pete French's vocals on the "In Hearing Of" album. Vincents keyboard playing and the whole jazz "infected" sound is pure progressive and original.
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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2006 at 20:21
I think both Sea Shanties and 2122 are prog metal from different times than now. Its complex, heavy, metal, plenty of riffs and prog. They have a natural place in the history of progmetal. One shouldn't listen to modern prog and try and apply its set of rules too the older albums. We can't dismiss the harder bands of the 70's as not being metal, because they don't sound like newer metal.

That's worse than old proggers dismissing your Progmetal as not being prog. The metal term itself is from the 70's. So if young people can't relate to heavy 70's music as metal, because the newer stuff is so much harder, find a new name for this new music instead. Metallica and Slayer changed metal so much it became Thrash Metal and not 70's heavy metal anymore.

pop from 60's and 80's is not very alike but both are still pop, from different ages. Its part of the same history. 





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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2006 at 20:55
As far as I'm concerned, Rush was the first Prog Metal band. The fact that most major Prog Metal bands have been influenced more by Rush than by Black Sabbath speaks in favor of this. But I don't deny that Black Sabbath has been influential on Prog in various forms.
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