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Topic ClosedJesus Christ Superstar?!
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Poll Question: Should Jesus Christ Superstar be included in the archives
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25 [67.57%]
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9 [24.32%]
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Snow Dog View Drop Down
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 09:13
A "no" from me.
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valravennz View Drop Down
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Points: 2546 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 09:16
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

A "no" from me.
I can't see why it should not be included - it was ground breaking when it was
released - or should I say - controversial - and it has some great proggy music moments. But I am not ready for Andrew Lloyd Webber to be added to PA!!Wink


Edited by valravennz - May 16 2007 at 09:21

"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence"
- Robert Fripp


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Bilek View Drop Down
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Points: 1484 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 10:35
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by Atomic_Rooster Atomic_Rooster wrote:

how is that prog, its not even one of his better musicals - the lyrics are TERRIBLE and the music is hardly progressive, Tommy by the Who is a more progressive theatrical rock show than JCSuperstar.

Weber does have some proggier other stuff though that is worth consideration for addition.
 
That's already here, if you mean the Variations (actually performed by Colosseum II + guests) Wink
 
...and JCS is the first proper Rock opera, with recitative, aria, big choruses, far-out plot where the hero dies at the end - everything - unlike Tommy, which isn't an opera at all, but a set of pop songs that happen to tell a story about some kid who's good at pinball - hell, Joseph and His Amazing Technicolor dreamcoat is a better example of a rock opera than Tommy, even if it does have a happy ending (and it was written before Tommy).
 
I don't see what's so terrible about Rice's lyrics - a bit corny maybe, but have you heard Rick Wakeman's solo stuff, or "The Magician's Birthday" by Uriah Heep?
 
/runs away very fast from Easy Livin's well-aimed boot... LOL
 
The first release with Ian Gillan singing the part of Jesus is pretty good - if a bit long and rambling... but hey, we're talking about Prog Rock here...
 
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Not so sure about Joseph & the Technicolor stuff, because only one factor, presence of Jason Donovan (hell, acting Joseph!) made me run away a thousand miles! (and I happen to like the Biblical story...)
 
And thanks for clarifying the lyrics thing, this opera has some of the most beautiful lyrics ever, even the cheesy Herod's Song has its moments, lyrically! (the piece sounds out of place, because the music was actually taken from a previous abolished project..) Unless, of course, you're a great Bible opponent, in which case that causes you to hate every thing with a Biblical reference! (the JCS opera does not promote mainstream Christian doctrines, mind you!)
Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret:
Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!)
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clarke2001 View Drop Down
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Points: 4160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 17:11
Yes, for the sake of completeness and comprehension of the website. We need prog, it's relations, movements, influences and works parallel in timeline that are overlaping to some extent to better understand the genre itself.

So, definitive yes for inclusion, but in which section - that needs to be discussed. I'm not sure myself.
Percussion, sir!
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Certif1ed View Drop Down
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 02:49
I think it's a clear case for "Various Artists" - we couldn't possibly have Andrew Lloyd Weeber in the archives, as I for one would be violently ill.
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Wilcey View Drop Down
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Points: 2696 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 02:57
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

I for one would be violently ill.


Can I make that two for a sick-bucket please???


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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 03:04
Jesus Christ Superstar has many Prog moments:
 
  1. Overture
  2. Heven's on their Mind
  3. Damned for all Time
  4. The Last Supper
  5. Gethsemane
  6. Trial Before Pilate
  7. John Nineteen Fourty One

I believe the ORIGINAL OPERA deserves a place here in VARIOUS ARTISTS.

As somebody said before, Prog influencedd different aspects of music, we already have a musical called The War of the Worlds, so it would not be the first case (I'm not usibg the if X then why not Y argument, only explaining this is not the first case) and it's clear that Anfrew Lloyd Weber took Prog influence FOR THIS OPERA.
 
No way we should add ALW only JCS!!!!!!!!!!
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 17 2007 at 03:08
            
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Wilcey View Drop Down
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Points: 2696 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 03:04
Originally posted by Bilek Bilek wrote:

Not so sure about Joseph & the Technicolor stuff, because only one factor, presence of Jason Donovan
And thanks for clarifying the lyrics thing, this opera has some of the most beautiful lyrics ever, even the cheesy Herod's Song has its moments, lyrically!


Can we just clear a couple of things up........
Joseph and his technicolourdreamcoat is NOT,and (never was, never could be) and OPERA.
ditto for JCS and even Godspell (Which I enjoy)

When I first saw Joseph on stage in 1976, (I dare say Jason Donovan was still an Aussie School boy at the time) I was dissapointed even then.

If Lloyd Webber gets into PA........ well........I shall be stunned, and I shall eat my hat!
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 03:27
Originally posted by prog-chick prog-chick wrote:



Can we just clear a couple of things up........
Joseph and his technicolourdreamcoat is NOT,and (never was, never could be) and OPERA.
ditto for JCS and even Godspell (Which I enjoy)

When I first saw Joseph on stage in 1976, (I dare say Jason Donovan was still an Aussie School boy at the time) I was dissapointed even then.

If Lloyd Webber gets into PA........ well........I shall be stunned, and I shall eat my hat!
Me too - it'll taste better than sick... Dead
 
BTW, I think that "Joseph..." is at least as much an opera as, say, Tommy (but I don't want to see the Who here either).
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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toolis View Drop Down
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Points: 1678 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 04:09

i don't think it should be included here but it reminds me of the 1995-today Savatage era that are included here but it doesn't matter cause i don't think that Savatage should be included here either...
-music is like pornography...

sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more...



-sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue...
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Bilek View Drop Down
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Points: 1484 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 04:25
Originally posted by toolis toolis wrote:


i don't think it should be included here but it reminds me of the 1995-today Savatage era that are included here but it doesn't matter cause i don't think that Savatage should be included here either...
 
FYI: Savatage is here because they are a prog-metal band, not because they make so-called rock operas Wink
Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret:
Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!)
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toolis View Drop Down
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Points: 1678 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 04:31
Originally posted by Bilek Bilek wrote:

Originally posted by toolis toolis wrote:

i don't think it should be included here but it reminds me of the 1995-today Savatage era that are included here but it doesn't matter cause i don't think that Savatage should be included here either...

 


FYI: Savatage is here because they are a prog-metal band, not because they make so-called rock operas Wink


i wouldn't call them prog metal either..
-music is like pornography...

sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more...



-sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue...
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 04:50

Various Artists -> Concepts

(but that's not to say I like it very much, if at all)
 
ps: Savatage: Dead Winter Dead is most definitely Prog Metal IMHO, the others not so.
What?
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Bilek View Drop Down
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Points: 1484 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 04:52
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Jesus Christ Superstar has many Prog moments:
 
  1. Overture
  2. Heven's on their Mind
  3. Damned for all Time
  4. The Last Supper
  5. Gethsemane
  6. Trial Before Pilate
  7. John Nineteen Fourty One
ClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClap
and not just those: The album has a very strong characteristic of prog suites; i.e. recurring themes all around: like the "I Don't Know How to Love Him" reprise in Judas' Death, the second "Everything's Alright", neither of which songs are prog in their own right but add a sense of continuity/coherence to the album... Also, reprise of the melody sung by Jesus (our beloved Gillan Wink) at the end of "Simon Zealotes/Poor Jerusalem" at the next track by Pilates adds a unique sense... I also feel feel a proggy sense in Simon Zealotes, and I like the reprised part very much, though not "prog" in the strictest sense Tongue
I should add the "Hosanna" reprise in the second disc (Trial Before Pilate?), which IMHO is a very strong piece in both places... -well, Hosanna was certainly better in the movie with its full version- . Also "The Temple"... Features Gillan in his characteristic loud and high pitched voice, one of the strongest pieces in the album... (ironically, it was covered back in the mid '70's by a Turkish female pop singer into a lousy pop song! Lyrics were re-written, absolutely no hint of the concept was found Tongue!)
 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I believe the ORIGINAL OPERA deserves a place here in VARIOUS ARTISTS.
As somebody said before, Prog influencedd different aspects of music, we already have a musical called The War of the Worlds, so it would not be the first case (I'm not usibg the if X then why not Y argument, only explaining this is not the first case) and it's clear that Anfrew Lloyd Weber took Prog influence FOR THIS OPERA.
 
No way we should add ALW only JCS!!!!!!!!!!
 
Iván
 
First, The War of the Worlds argument is rahter unstable (though I also accept the similarities between the two albums... add to them Jeff Wayne's second "solo" effort Spartacus, which is nowhere near good as the first of course, and we can loosely relate 666, because of the concept and various singers singing various parts...) because Jeff Wayne is here as a seperate artist... Nothing to do with "X is here why not Y" argument; each one of the three albums I mentioned above, along with JCS have their own merits to be included in progarchives! (though we can consider Spartacus as Love Beach of JW!... It's a prog album nevertheless, a bad one, but still prog Wink)
 
Second: for all who argues against A L Webber's inclusion as an artist: A L Webber is already here by one album in VA section (apparently recorded by the collaboration of Colosseum members!!!), so please drop your weapons Wink... Even the worst artist, let's say one that is remotest to prog, can produce proggy works; as Ivan always quotes Rolling Stones' "Their Satanic Majesties Request", and even Bruce Springsteen is said to have made prog at one time... (I heard neither albums, speaking based on assumptions Tongue) In the two cases, we don't have a chance to include RS or "Boss", because the bulk of their material is not even remotely prog-related. But as for Webber, there's already one entry (oh, who am I speaking to, it is Certif1ed who added the album and wrote the first review!!!) i.ei Various Artists section already accommodates one of his works, so why not for another one Wink? (which clearly deserves it IMHO)
In the bottom line I happened to agree with Certif1ed anyway LOL
 
(Ivan's last line in the quote: yeah, only JCS is enough! I may stir the water in time as I progress in listening to his other stuff, but this is unlikely, as none of the other ALW "rock operas" seem prog enough, based on the reviews I read so far!)
 
 
last edit: it's good that I wrote this post, in case the album is added, now here I have half of a possible review I'll write for the album Wink


Edited by Bilek - May 17 2007 at 06:15
Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret:
Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!)
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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2007 at 12:23
NO Bilek 666 is an Aphrodite's Child Concept album not a Rock Opera or a Musical in any eay, there are only two artists invited Irene Pappas who has an orgarsm during nearly 5 minutes and the son of a Greek Diplomat (Name uncredited) who narrates part of a song.......BUT THEY ARE INVITED SINGERS.
 
The main element of a Rock Opera or a musical relies in the DIALOGUE, you can find them in Jesus Christ Superstar and in The War of the Worlds but not a single dialogue in 666.
 
So there's no connection between them, I believe you can compare JCS with Jeff Wayne's work and 666 with The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway.......Two different species, the first two are Rock Operas (Or the related musical) and the last two are CONCEPT albums.
 
I agree with all the rest Bilek
 
BTW: Gethsemmane is one of the best Prog songs I ever heard.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 17 2007 at 12:24
            
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