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Topic ClosedCan Pop be Prog?

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endlessepic View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 01:47
Originally posted by Philéas Philéas wrote:

Certif1ed knows what he's talking about! Thumbs%20Up Great post!


I second the motion!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 02:30
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Originally posted by R_DeNIRO R_DeNIRO wrote:

Bohemian Rhapsody is a very famous song, but not pop music.
  
 
(...) Sold as a single record for the pop market and appeared in the pop charts, then regular voted into the all time top ten of pop recordings
 
Shame on you, Dick!!!
 
That's not the story at all - the idea of releasing something as elaborate as Bohemian Rhapsody as a single was regarded as completely ludicrous then - just as it would be now if another "popular" band tried the same thing (remember, "popular" is relative - Metallica were exceptionally popular at one point, but the music couldn't really be considered as "pop").
 
General rule of thumb: Singles are 3-4 minutes and simple, not 7 minutes and mind-bogglingly complex. The record company wasn't too happy to release it, and radio stations refused to play it at first.
 
The reason it became popular is that Kenny Everett played it 14 times non-stop (or something like that), and almost singlehandedly brainwashed the public into accepting it as a great novelty record.
 
It's popular, but not typical of pop by the longest chalk you can imagine!
 
BH is one of the greatest anomalies the pop charts have ever had - and it's done it 3 times to boot!
 
 
Following your logic, Dick (which isn't without good foundation, I have to say), since King Crimson Genesis and Yes were very popular in their heydays, that makes them all popular - and they all wrote songs and released singles.
 
"ITCOTCK" was released as a single, as was "The Knife" and "Roundabout", just as three examples.
 
Welcome to Pop Archives... Tongue
 


Confused

I think he agrees with you if you read the whole post (which was rather short). The part you edited out to make this monster post is:

Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:


Definitely a pop song/music - meaning 'popular song/music'.


He was saying it was pop in the fact that it was popular, and still is popular. So you were saying he was wrong and then agreeing with his statement that it was pop because it was a popular song/music.

Your post makes no sense and you edited his to hypnotize the world with your evil intentions of turning Prog Archives into Pop Archives!!!Shocked


Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 02:34

some thoughts:

1.pop is a genre.. even though pop is short for popular, someday, it reached a point where this word expressed a certain kind of music... just like prog is short for progressive and was used to state the actual meaning of the word applied to that new sound back then but after the 70's it remained to classify that certain kind of music...
2.just because Blackfield, Hawkwind etc are in here labeled as prog, doesn't make them prog to me, so i can't say anything about arguments such as Blackfield being pop prog...
3.Queen and Pink Floyd sold millions of copies.. this doesn't make them pop or any less of prog bands...

anyway..
-music is like pornography...

sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more...



-sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 04:47
Originally posted by progismylife progismylife wrote:



Your post makes no sense...

Wink
 
Does it have to?
 
Wink


Edited by Certif1ed - March 27 2007 at 04:47
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2008 at 09:09
To state that prog cannot be pop takes away the band members' desire to make it financially, for, as everyone in the sixties and even seventies knew, a 'hit' brought public awareness, and record sales---which means food on the table and conert ticket sales. If you can show me a band who purposely denied their record label, and their public, the sale of a 'hit single' I'd be impressed. I bet even Robert "Dusty Roads" Fripp has enjoyed income boosted by a 'hit single.' Thus, if a band creates a song and that song inadvertently becomes a pop 'hit' is that song or that band no longer considered progressive rock? Strawberry Fields Forever, Nights in White Satin, Conquistador, I Know What I Like, Hocus Pocus, Bloody Well Right, Bungle in the Jungle, Fly by Night, Wonderous Stories, Solsbury Hill, Another Brick in the Wall, Part II---do these songs automatically disgrace these groups from the 'hallowed halls' of Progressive Rock? And what of confessed 'pop-oriented' artists who produce fresh, innovative music with all the bells and whistles and other signature 'prog rock' qualities? For example, Kate Bush's Seventh Wave, many David Sylvian songs, Cocteau Twins Treasure and Tiny Dynamite period, U2 Boy, Police Ghosts in the Machine. When groups or individuals are experimenting with the latest technology and with concept album themes, and with variable song structures or vocal and instrumental delivery styles (Eno, Fripp, Sylvian, Gabriel, Elizabeth Frazier, etc. etc. etc.!!) to me, that constitutes repeated and careful listening BECAUSE IT IS PROGRESSIVE! Now if training in classical music and the incorporation of jazz and classical instrumental virtuosity is what is required then there are a whole lot of current prog/neoprog groups who are automatically disqualified. ANd if song length is the ultimate determiner, then, again, your llist of true progrockers shrinks to barely a milkcarton full. I guess what it comes down to is how you CHOOSE to define 'progressive'. I thought it meant forward thinking, innovative, creative, risk-taking.
Sorry to get so hot. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif.http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif I just don't like narrow-mindedness and limitation---in myself as well as others.
Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2008 at 15:35

I think Super Furry Animals fit the difinition of "prog-pop" very well.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2008 at 15:39
Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

I think Super Furry Animals fit the difinition of "prog-pop" very well.



the name sure as hell fits hahhaha
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2008 at 19:46
SFA's "Guerrilla" album certainly works for me as prog-pop. but their more recent albums have been snooze-a-licious ;P
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2008 at 21:22
Aloha does some OK progpop

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2008 at 23:43
When I think of prog pop, later Supertramp is what springs to mind first.  Genesis after Trick of the Tale comes up second.

Edited by ghost_of_morphy - May 10 2008 at 23:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2008 at 23:58

I still believe the term Prog Pop or Pop P¨rog is a natural contadiction.

Of course a band can play in the borderline of both genres, but it's one or the other, not both simultaneously.

Iván

            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2008 at 04:16
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I still believe the term Prog Pop or Pop P¨rog is a natural contadiction.

Of course a band can play in the borderline of both genres, but it's one or the other, not both simultaneously.

Iván



LOL spend a week with the Xover team Ivan. Though your ears may bleed and fall off before a couple of day hahahha.    Today's real prog music is not about retreaded symphonic clones of the 70's or PM.. there is a world of pop-prog out there..  we hear  it everyday in the bands that come to us.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2008 at 06:27
The basic reason for the disagreement here between knowledgeable people who have thought carefully about this question is the slipperiness of the terms 'prog' and 'pop'. They are being used here as a binary - that is, two ends of a spectrum - without acknowledgment that the spectrum is huge and crossovers happen all the time. They overlap differently for different people: many lovers of 'classical' music consider prog to be a part of pop - to them, even the so-called 'complexity' of prog does not differentiate it sufficiently from pop, and after all, it sprang from pop music. To them, prog is pop.

The borders are blurred. It's only our desire to compartmentalise things that drives us to define things and then debate endlessly those items that don't fit into our definitions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2008 at 06:41
Originally posted by russellk russellk wrote:

The basic reason for the disagreement here between knowledgeable people who have thought carefully about this question is the slipperiness of the terms 'prog' and 'pop'. They are being used here as a binary - that is, two ends of a spectrum - without acknowledgment that the spectrum is huge and crossovers happen all the time. They overlap differently for different people: many lovers of 'classical' music consider prog to be a part of pop - to them, even the so-called 'complexity' of prog does not differentiate it sufficiently from pop, and after all, it sprang from pop music. To them, prog is pop.

The borders are blurred. It's only our desire to compartmentalise things that drives us to define things and then debate endlessly those items that don't fit into our definitions.


Great post, RussellClap! In addition, I'd like to point out that, in Seventies Italy, what we now call RPI (Italian Progressive Rock) was simply called 'pop'. At the time, there was a distinction between ordinary easy listening music ('musica leggera') and what was considered to be more artistic, like rock and prog.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2008 at 13:25

I still believe that when you cross that blurry line, you enter in territory of one or another.

That there are Prog bands with Pop leanings or Prog bands that made Pop tracks, I agree completely, but POP and PROG IMO don't exist simultaneously, or you are in territory of one or the other.

Iván
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2008 at 13:36
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I still believe that when you cross that blurry line, you enter in territory of one or another.


That there are Prog bands with Pop leanings or Prog bands that made Pop tracks, I agree completely, but POP and PROG IMO don't exist simultaneously, or you are in territory of one or the other.


Iván


I see what you mean... so what is Money by Pink Floyd? I'm thinking on others but of what you said they're prog or pop...

Supertramp's Breakfast in America and Famous last Words are definitly pop prog albums. Also every Post Hackett album. Yes' Talk? Yes Union? Yes The Ladder? Tormato? ...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2008 at 13:51
Music isn't exclusive. Anything and everything can be mixed.
http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2008 at 14:47
Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:



I see what you mean... so what is Money by Pink Floyd? I'm thinking on others but of what you said they're prog or pop...
 
It's a mainstream song in a Prog album, but the track alone is just mainstream, I won't call it POP either, I will call it Rock, has all the Blues structure and jazzy leanings.

Supertramp's Breakfast in America and Famous last Words are definitly pop prog albums.
 
For me, Supertramp shouldn't be here from a start, but they have a few Prog songs in mainly POP albums
 
Also every Post Hackett album.
 
For me ATTW3 is POP, Duke is Pop with a few prog tracks and the rest is pure bland POP, I know many will disagree, but that's my honest point of view.
 
 Yes' Talk? Yes Union? Yes The Ladder? Tormato? ...
 
Yes Talk is a hybrid, I can't say they fit in Prog or POP, The Ladder has some Prog songs and UNION is a blend of Pop songs wih boring prog songs.
 
Tormato is Prog, bad Prog, but Prog at the end.
 
Iván
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2008 at 14:54
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:

I see what you mean... so what is Money by Pink Floyd? I'm thinking on others but of what you said they're prog or pop...

It's a mainstream song in a Prog album, but the track alone is just mainstream, I won't call it POP either, I will call it Rock, has all the Blues structure and jazzy leanings.Supertramp's Breakfast in America and Famous last Words are definitly pop prog albums.


For me, Supertramp shouldn't be here from a start, but they have a few Prog songs in mainly POP albums


Also every Post Hackett album.


For me ATTW3 is POP, Duke is Pop with a few prog tracks and the rest is pure bland POP, I know many will disagree, but that's my honest point of view.


Yes' Talk? Yes Union? Yes The Ladder? Tormato? ...


Yes Talk is a hybrid, I can't say they fit in Prog or POP, The Ladder has some Prog songs and UNION is a blend of Pop songs wih boring prog songs.


Tormato is Prog, bad Prog, but Prog at the end.


Iván



Fine to me. It convinces me, but I don't agree, if that's fine with you, it's fine with me. As I being pretty much younger than you, there's a really high percent that you're right(not only because you're older, because you lived those years).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2008 at 15:46
This is exactly what I meant. People bring up countless examples of songs and albums from that vast blurred area between the two ends of the prog-pop spectrum, and someone tries to fit them in either category. Though the terms Ivan uses are rather fuzzy: 'mainly pop', 'a blend of pop songs with boring prog songs', 'just mainstream'. Ivan, if there was anything like a clear distinction between pop and prog, do you think you would need those extra terms.

Yes, I think there are separate territories in which we'll call a song, album or band 'prog' or 'pop' but that doesn't imply the terms are mutually exclusive. Just because something's distinctive character may be 'prog' doesn't mean it's not also 'pop', and vice versa.

Me, I'm all for flexibility.
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