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Kati View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2014 at 01:41
In regards to illegal music download, I do not use nor make use of any of those sites. However due to the internet and social network a lot is shared, sometimes most beneficial to the artist, however just in case I must add: "If someday we all go to prison for downloading music, I just hope they split us by music genre   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aapatsos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2014 at 06:41
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by aapatsos aapatsos wrote:

^^ the fact that it is done doesn't mean that it is permitted or that PA should encourage it, this is the point.

Of course, you will never be able to verify everyone's sources. It is with high-profile artists that this comes to surface.

Once the album is released, we are not legally responsible, BECAUSE THE ALBUM IS AVAILABLE TO EVERYBODY, if somebody uses illegal copies, it's his responsibility, not ours.

But if we allow a review of an album WE KNOW IS NOT AVAILABLE ON STORES, we could be accused of encouraging illegal downloads,. and honestly, I don't trust musical industry.


  This is very true Ivan. May I add to your last sentence "unless it is clear that it is a review of a promo provided by the artist/promoter"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2014 at 06:58
Originally posted by aapatsos aapatsos wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by aapatsos aapatsos wrote:

^^ the fact that it is done doesn't mean that it is permitted or that PA should encourage it, this is the point.

Of course, you will never be able to verify everyone's sources. It is with high-profile artists that this comes to surface.

Once the album is released, we are not legally responsible, BECAUSE THE ALBUM IS AVAILABLE TO EVERYBODY, if somebody uses illegal copies, it's his responsibility, not ours.

But if we allow a review of an album WE KNOW IS NOT AVAILABLE ON STORES, we could be accused of encouraging illegal downloads,. and honestly, I don't trust musical industry.


  This is very true Ivan. May I add to your last sentence "unless it is clear that it is a review of a promo provided by the artist/promoter"
I understand the worries, but I don't see a diffrence between the two cases above. One thing is legal or is not and in both the cases it's a reviewer's responsibility. I think the site has demonstrated alot of tine that we don't encourage illegal downloads. Should anybody do it in a review or in a post, I think will trigger the admins, as well as ecouraging the use of drugs or any other illegal activity. (I'd like it to be legal, but it's another story).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AtomicCrimsonRush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2014 at 07:05
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

If you don't want people reviewing or rating albums before they are officially released then they shouldn't be added to the site officially until they are and even then some albums get released in one place before the other...


I agree!

If the album is up early it invites reviews. I think all the reviewers that are not Collabs are quite ordinary for the new Yes album. Giving it one and 2 stars after one listen doesnt seem fair to the artist. Its not available even on Spotify yet but I suspect will be on release. 

Best to adhere to the guidelines if it aint out yet n tolerance to any reviews, unless promo copies available. i get lots of promos for artists albums well ahead of release date... but Yes havent sent any from those sources as of yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argonaught Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2014 at 07:07
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

[QUOTE=aapatsos] 
But if we allow a review of an album WE KNOW IS NOT AVAILABLE ON STORES, we could be accused of encouraging illegal downloads,


May be not "encouraging" (no evidence that PA prompted anyone to make an illegal download), but "implicitly condoning" could be a possibility.

if I were PA, I'd just not enable any reviews and ratings until the official release date + 2-3 days of "thinking and cool-off time". 

Another idea would be to automatically remove all 1-star reviews, left by the persons who have less than 5-10 reviews published. This way the public will know that the reviewer is not just running their one-man crusade against a certain album or band. I think there was a discussion in the past about some people creating an account for the sole purpose of "venting" about a certain band they didn't like, so they went to all their albums and gave all of them one star rating. If you hate this band so much, why do you even buy their music??? Can't follow some people's thought patterns.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2014 at 07:11
Generally the flag will only go up when a Collaborator posts a pre-release review without stating where he obtained the preview copy. With non-collabs the Admins can simply remove the review and/or send a warning and that is their right to do that. Without question. No ifs, not buts. The Admins cannot give official site representatives the benefit of doubt - in every case they will be asked to reveal where their review copy came from, just as Conor was. 

Each and every Collaborator is regarded as a representative of the site and therefore has a responsibility to protect the integrity of the site AT ALL TIMES. If a Collaborator cannot handle this responsibility or is unwilling to publicly state where their review copies come from when asked then they should step down. 

If you wear a Collaborator tag then wear it with pride and respect the judgement of the appointed Admins. Calling them bullies on an open forum is  not acceptable - if you've got a beef with how this site is managed then take it to the CZ. Stern Smile


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2014 at 07:20
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by aapatsos aapatsos wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by aapatsos aapatsos wrote:

^^ the fact that it is done doesn't mean that it is permitted or that PA should encourage it, this is the point.

Of course, you will never be able to verify everyone's sources. It is with high-profile artists that this comes to surface.

Once the album is released, we are not legally responsible, BECAUSE THE ALBUM IS AVAILABLE TO EVERYBODY, if somebody uses illegal copies, it's his responsibility, not ours.

But if we allow a review of an album WE KNOW IS NOT AVAILABLE ON STORES, we could be accused of encouraging illegal downloads,. and honestly, I don't trust musical industry.


  This is very true Ivan. May I add to your last sentence "unless it is clear that it is a review of a promo provided by the artist/promoter"
I understand the worries, but I don't see a diffrence between the two cases above. One thing is legal or is not and in both the cases it's a reviewer's responsibility. I think the site has demonstrated alot of tine that we don't encourage illegal downloads. Should anybody do it in a review or in a post, I think will trigger the admins, as well as ecouraging the use of drugs or any other illegal activity. (I'd like it to be legal, but it's another story).



^ You can't absolve the members by 'delegating upwards' -  the Admins cannot be reasonably expected to read every review and every post on PA. (Currently there are but three of the critters) Where the crux lies is in your statement : I think the site has demonstrated a lot of the time that we don't encourage illegal downloads. If that is demonstrably true then fine but if it's not then as Ivan states, we could lay ourselves open to problems. To make your statement credible we have to ensure that both 'ratings only' reviews and written reviews that fail to disclose the source of their copy published prior to release dates are deleted.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2014 at 07:28
Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

[QUOTE=aapatsos] 
But if we allow a review of an album WE KNOW IS NOT AVAILABLE ON STORES, we could be accused of encouraging illegal downloads,


May be not "encouraging" (no evidence that PA prompted anyone to make an illegal download), but "implicitly condoning" could be a possibility.

if I were PA, I'd just not enable any reviews and ratings until the official release date + 2-3 days of "thinking and cool-off time". 

Another idea would be to automatically remove all 1-star reviews, left by the persons who have less than 5-10 reviews published. This way the public will know that the reviewer is not just running their one-man crusade against a certain album or band. I think there was a discussion in the past about some people creating an account for the sole purpose of "venting" about a certain band they didn't like, so they went to all their albums and gave all of them one star rating. If you hate this band so much, why do you even buy their music??? Can't follow some people's thought patterns.    


You are PA, we all are (subject to the limitations imposed by the database software provided by the owner Max of courseWink) Such a suggestion is not without merit, but from memory (an old man's alas) I think it would require implementation and monitoring by the site owner to make it work. Oh yes, now I remember, there is a rather vague presumption that we believe the members will not behave like complete dicks when an eagerly awaited album comes around (it's in the small print somewhere, dunno)



Edited by ExittheLemming - July 07 2014 at 07:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2014 at 12:56
Originally posted by aapatsos aapatsos wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by aapatsos aapatsos wrote:

^^ the fact that it is done doesn't mean that it is permitted or that PA should encourage it, this is the point.

Of course, you will never be able to verify everyone's sources. It is with high-profile artists that this comes to surface.

Once the album is released, we are not legally responsible, BECAUSE THE ALBUM IS AVAILABLE TO EVERYBODY, if somebody uses illegal copies, it's his responsibility, not ours.

But if we allow a review of an album WE KNOW IS NOT AVAILABLE ON STORES, we could be accused of encouraging illegal downloads,. and honestly, I don't trust musical industry.


  This is very true Ivan. May I add to your last sentence "unless it is clear that it is a review of a promo provided by the artist/promoter"

Of course aapatsos, said it in my first post.

In my case I have received a lot of albums before it's release:

- In some cases I proceed to review them immediately but I clearly post "I received this album from (name of the band member who sent it)" or "From the label" or whoever sent it.

- In some cases I prefer to wait like with sensible artists:
  1.  Anton Roolaart sent me his debut a week before the release, but we decided to even add the artist the first day the album was released, so PA would have the first official review.
  2. In the case of Erik de Beer and Life Line Project, who has a lot of negative feedback from a rival band fanbase, I always post the album the exact day it is released, because it would be unfair to allow his album being released with 5 ratings of 1 star, because the same guys always make this, he even retired from PA because of this, but I managed to convince him to return.
Iván

            
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Life Syndrome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2014 at 15:54
Would it at least be possible to add something like "If this review is being written before the official release of the album, be sure to include a comment on your source for the music"?  You could add it to the list of stuff that must be checked before you can submit a review.  I have no problem with this rule, but I think it should be made a rule instead of simply deciding to delete reviews that don't adhere to some unwritten rule.  It can't be that hard to add it.  Anyways, Dean, "bully" isn't so bad.  You've called me far worse LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2014 at 16:07
You are far worse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2014 at 18:14
Originally posted by Second Life Syndrome Second Life Syndrome wrote:

Would it at least be possible to add something like "If this review is being written before the official release of the album, be sure to include a comment on your source for the music"?  You could add it to the list of stuff that must be checked before you can submit a review.  I have no problem with this rule, but I think it should be made a rule instead of simply deciding to delete reviews that don't adhere to some unwritten rule.  It can't be that hard to add it.  Anyways, Dean, "bully" isn't so bad.  You've called me far worse LOL

You don't need a rule, just common sense and showing you care for the site enough to avoid problems.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Life Syndrome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2014 at 18:23
What about new people?  Thanks, Dean.  Coming from you, that's a compliment.  Someone's got to keep you old guys in the current century.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2014 at 18:36
Clue: it's not a compliment. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2014 at 19:31
Originally posted by Second Life Syndrome Second Life Syndrome wrote:

What about new people?  Thanks, Dean.  Coming from you, that's a compliment.  Someone's got to keep you old guys in the current century.

Well, common sense applieS to young and older people.

We can't make a penal code for everything, the rules are clear

NO ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES

We can't guess if anybody has a legally released album before reviewing it, but we can delete the reviews of non released albums if we have reasons to believe it has been obtained by illegal methods.

 Iván
            
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2014 at 02:35
Originally posted by Second Life Syndrome Second Life Syndrome wrote:

Would it at least be possible to add something like "If this review is being written before the official release of the album, be sure to include a comment on your source for the music"?  You could add it to the list of stuff that must be checked before you can submit a review.  I have no problem with this rule, but I think it should be made a rule instead of simply deciding to delete reviews that don't adhere to some unwritten rule.  It can't be that hard to add it.  Anyways, Dean, "bully" isn't so bad.  You've called me far worse LOL


If we thought our members were dumb enough to require such a disclaimer before allowing them to submit a review, we would be bullies. Pinch

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2014 at 18:14
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


...and honestly, I don't trust musical industry.

Everybody knows that the music biz don't give a f%$k about music, that's how it goes, everybody knows.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Life Syndrome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2014 at 22:18
I love that Dean can be a total jerk while at the same time telling me I'm being one.  Irony.  CLUE: I AM a collab, so to call me names is breaking your own rule.  Good thing his opinion means absolutely nothing to me.  I hope that this conversation is over, as most everyone seems to think that it was about illegal activity, even though it had nothing to do with that.  I'm out.

Edited by Second Life Syndrome - July 08 2014 at 22:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2014 at 22:33
^ Don't be too hard on him, he's quite old, you know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2014 at 22:33
Dean my fav grumpy and Ivan one of my ultimate fav collabs ever, both so honest and at times cannot seem to agree with each other hahaha this is fun to watch read hihihihi ok back to topic, different views, however none of them compromise nor do they work or are in any way related to the likes of rolling stone magazine and other prog/rock magazines, nothing has nor will influence them and their views, they both work hard here and only for the love of music, this site is very fair also due to both of them, (many collabs are grumpy, but once you realize they are sweet, you'll love them) their honestly at times might not be appreciated but they are so fair and to me I think they are true and most awesome! Really! Thanks to them ProgArchives gives a fair chance to prog music beyond the music industry and corporate suits, once you get over their sincere, honest wit you really appreciate them even more!

Edited by Kati - July 08 2014 at 22:35
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