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Dean View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 04:07
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Do you understand what you are actually implying here now? To me it seems that what you are saying is that PA is a private site thus the public members should have no view in this respect? PA is thus aka biased? 
Eh? Surely by now you know how this site works.

The Admin team comprises of seven people - three of them play no active part in the day to day operation of the site - they consist of the owner and two others and their only concern is the mechanics of the site. The remaining four deal with site content, membership, discipline and all the interpersonal crap, so let's call them "Mods" for the purposes of this post just to avoid confusion. Those two halves hardly ever talk to each other, (In four years as a "Mod" I conversed with Max maybe three times, Rony once and once with Philippe). The "Mods" are responsible for the "management" of the collaborators, especially those on the subgenre teams, they have no "power" to affect the decisions of those collab teams, and similarly the collab teams have no say in how the "Mods" do their job.

As Madan said, this is no different to how any large company works - you have a board of directors who delegate day-to-day authority and responsibility to a non-elected senior management team and they in turn delegate down to subordinate management teams for the management of specific tasks and/or operational areas. Each level works autonomously and usually without hindrance and interference from above (or below).


I don't know how the four "Mods" currently work but in the past we seldom worked on a democratic majority vote basis, it was simply too impractical to do that - we worked on trust, delegated-authority and joint-responsibility. Essentially each "Mod" was given the authority to act on behalf of the whole Admin Team, and once that action had been taken then the other "Mods" had an obligated responsibility to support that decision in public. Basically I trusted my colleagues to make the right decision and backed them up if and when required, and I knew I could rely on them to do the same for me.

This may appear to be a strange concept for a so-called "collaborative" website, and to the outside world will look very democratic, but for example when I deleted 1,000s of "bogus" reviews and ratings it would have been impossible for us to have taken a democratic vote on each and every one beforehand. What this meant was my actions were taken on behalf of the team, and to do that my decisions had to be balanced and carefully considered - devoid of personal emotion, predilections, prejudices and therefore completely unbiased. Yup - that was (and still is) my special superpower - I could separate the personal feelings that I post here as an ordinary person from the decisions I had to make on behalf of the Admin Team and the site. Not everyone can do that, this is why not everyone has what it takes to be a "Mod".

HOWEVER, if an issue was raised in the AZ (such as Keishiro said here), it was discussed and if there were no objections from other "Mods" then an action was taken. Sure we would gauge public opinion, but that would have to be balanced with our responsibility for the site as a whole. There would not be a vote, but each "Mod" had a kinda soft-veto in that if they objected then the action would not be taken and a different solution would be sort. 

PS: In this case, the matter was taken to the AZ and the review subsequently got deleted, all very "lawful", correct and aboveboard, ... and most of all unbiased.



Edited by Dean - October 02 2015 at 04:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 05:04
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Do you understand what you are actually implying here now? To me it seems that what you are saying is that PA is a private site thus the public members should have no view in this respect? PA is thus aka biased? 
Eh? Surely by now you know how this site works.

The Admin team comprises of seven people - three of them play no active part in the day to day operation of the site - they consist of the owner and two others and their only concern is the mechanics of the site. The remaining four deal with site content, membership, discipline and all the interpersonal crap, so let's call them "Mods" for the purposes of this post just to avoid confusion. Those two halves hardly ever talk to each other, (In four years as a "Mod" I conversed with Max maybe three times, Rony once and once with Philippe). The "Mods" are responsible for the "management" of the collaborators, especially those on the subgenre teams, they have no "power" to affect the decisions of those collab teams, and similarly the collab teams have no say in how the "Mods" do their job.

As Madan said, this is no different to how any large company works - you have a board of directors who delegate day-to-day authority and responsibility to a non-elected senior management team and they in turn delegate down to subordinate management teams for the management of specific tasks and/or operational areas. Each level works autonomously and usually without hindrance and interference from above (or below).


I don't know how the four "Mods" currently work but in the past we seldom worked on a democratic majority vote basis, it was simply too impractical to do that - we worked on trust, delegated-authority and joint-responsibility. Essentially each "Mod" was given the authority to act on behalf of the whole Admin Team, and once that action had been taken then the other "Mods" had an obligated responsibility to support that decision in public. Basically I trusted my colleagues to make the right decision and backed them up if and when required, and I knew I could rely on them to do the same for me.

This may appear to be a strange concept for a so-called "collaborative" website, and to the outside world will look very democratic, but for example when I deleted 1,000s of "bogus" reviews and ratings it would have been impossible for us to have taken a democratic vote on each and every one beforehand. What this meant was my actions were taken on behalf of the team, and to do that my decisions had to be balanced and carefully considered - devoid of personal emotion, predilections, prejudices and therefore completely unbiased. Yup - that was (and still is) my special superpower - I could separate the personal feelings that I post here as an ordinary person from the decisions I had to make on behalf of the Admin Team and the site. Not everyone can do that, this is why not everyone has what it takes to be a "Mod".

HOWEVER, if an issue was raised in the AZ (such as Keishiro said here), it was discussed and if there were no objections from other "Mods" then an action was taken. Sure we would gauge public opinion, but that would have to be balanced with our responsibility for the site as a whole. There would not be a vote, but each "Mod" had a kinda soft-veto in that if they objected then the action would not be taken and a different solution would be sort. 

PS: In this case, the matter was taken to the AZ and the review subsequently got deleted, all very "lawful", correct and aboveboard, ... and most of all unbiased.


Dean, that review cannot be compared to bogus reviews, you surely know this, I know you this too. You guys discussed it between you and it's final, I accept it however me discussing this matter should be allowed and accepted too even it is irrelevant because that review already has been deleted. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 06:25
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:


Dean, that review cannot be compared to bogus reviews, you surely know this, I know you this too. You guys discussed it between you and it's final, I accept it however me discussing this matter should be allowed and accepted too even it is irrelevant because that review already has been deleted. 
1. I wasn't making any comparison between that review and bogus reviews, I simply gave an example of an unilateral Admin decision to illustrate that this is not necessarily a democratic process.
2. Know you how I that you to me this you too. [*hic*]
3. I'm not an Admin, it's deletion was nothing to do with me, I just expressed my opinion, just like you did and just like Angelo, who is also no longer an admin, did.
4. No one is stopping you discussing it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angelo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 06:28
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Different topic - I think some real cleanup is in order.

Thomas Thielen urges to stop fake reviews on PA through his Facebook page 


With this guy as a nice example:


This almost got lost in a storm here.

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I have to admit that I always get a little...let's just say cautious, whenever I see somewhat under-the-radar acts receiving 5 after 5 star review, but it is very hard to establish proof of fraud, unless people are doing the multiple accounts from one IP thang, and even that is possible to circumvent. 
I'm not sure you can say that he purposely is pushing the album either, as he has some 3 and 4 star ratings of 2015 releases as well. 

As well as this valid reaction.

However, after my report, and the mention of this by Thomas Thielen and Colin Tench on Facebook this one is quite obvious: http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=56611

He had only a review for T, and after this got raised, he suddenly puts in reviews that write down Steven Wilson, Nemo and Corvus Stone. It's a different member than the one mentioned above, but here I see happening exactly what David Danish Guldbamsen refers to...


I know from experience that cleaning up something like this is a mess, but this is wrong - and clearly Thomas Thielen is not happy about it either, so I'd say some action is in order.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 08:08
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Quick question here. The PA admins currently on here, are there any who frequently do write album reviews, on here? It seems to me, or I might be mistaken maybe that little or none reviews are written by Admins or I am wrong here? Stern Smile

No pun intended, however I think the voting should have been extended beyond admins, especially considering that no written rules were broken. 
 
Kati,
 
AFAIR, Easy Livin was the only Admin to ever have found the time post reviews regularly... As the ex-reviewing champ on site, I can totally understand Admins who have no time or simply don't want to write reviews...
 
While I've had issues with some of them Admins over my 11 years, I never doubted a moment of their drive and care for this place. They got to that position because the majority of us (collabs and owners) have trust in them... So if a review gets taken out, so be it... Should it be one of mine, I will accept it (I've got a few turds out there)... They've even undone once some work I had done for the site: I've even had an album (added by me) removed : Winwood's first solo album, filled with Traffic members >> so be it!!
 
Believe me (BTW, Though asked a couple of times, I was a never an Admin, precisely because it's time consuming, sometimes unpleasant and thankless job), Admin is tiresome position and they don't have any advantages... like reviewers or collabs, they don't get paid.
 
Dean explained how the site and admin team work... It's fine with me. As it should be for anyone.
 
EDIT: oooops, I forgot: Hug
 
 
 


Edited by Sean Trane - October 02 2015 at 08:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 08:28
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Quick question here. The PA admins currently on here, are there any who frequently do write album reviews, on here? It seems to me, or I might be mistaken maybe that little or none reviews are written by Admins or I am wrong here? Stern Smile

No pun intended, however I think the voting should have been extended beyond admins, especially considering that no written rules were broken. 
 
Kati,
 
AFAIR, Easy Livin was the only Admin to ever have found the time post reviews regularly... As the ex-reviewing champ on site, I can totally understand Admins who have no time or simply don't want to write reviews...
 
While I've had issues with some of them Admins over my 11 years, I never doubted a moment of their drive and care for this place. They got to that position because the majority of us (collabs and owners) have trust in them... So if a review gets taken out, so be it... Should it be one of mine, I will accept it (I've got a few turds out there)... They've even undone once some work I had done for the site: I've even had an album (added by me) removed : Winwood's first solo album, filled with Traffic members >> so be it!!
 
Believe me (BTW, Though asked a couple of times, I was a never an Admin, precisely because it's time consuming, sometimes unpleasant and thankless job), Admin is tiresome position and they don't have any advantages... like reviewers or collabs, they don't get paid.
 
Dean explained how the site and admin team work... It's fine with me. As it should be for anyone.
 
EDIT: oooops, I forgot: Hug
 
 
 
Sean,
hahaha love your oops and right back and front to you Big smile Hug
I understand what you say however in my head I still find it difficult to comprehend the logic concerning the hype around that review. My indifference of opinion does not matter anyway, however I do accept the final outcome and this is ok too. Although, I think it's all very silly and funny Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 08:51
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Sean,
hahaha love your oops and right back and front to you Big smile Hug
I understand what you say however in my head I still find it difficult to comprehend the logic concerning the hype around that review. My indifference of opinion does not matter anyway, however I do accept the final outcome and this is ok too. Although, I think it's all very silly and funny Smile
 
from what I gather from both review threads and the PA status thread, much of that "hype" is due to your input
 
 
 
EDIt: does a kiss make it better than a hug??Big smile
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Sean Trane - October 02 2015 at 08:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 09:46
Hey guys, calm down. Didn't you notice we all do the "work" for PA for free. So I consider that any reproach for a work that took me nearly half a day (it's not basic translation as I explained) is misplaced to say the least. Besides, Philippe, the author of the original version, doesn't want to register to PA and he gave me his "blessing" to publish the translation with my own account.
Thanks.


Edited by lucas - October 02 2015 at 09:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angelo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 10:50
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Different topic - I think some real cleanup is in order.

Thomas Thielen urges to stop fake reviews on PA through his Facebook page 


With this guy as a nice example:


This almost got lost in a storm here.

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I have to admit that I always get a little...let's just say cautious, whenever I see somewhat under-the-radar acts receiving 5 after 5 star review, but it is very hard to establish proof of fraud, unless people are doing the multiple accounts from one IP thang, and even that is possible to circumvent. 
I'm not sure you can say that he purposely is pushing the album either, as he has some 3 and 4 star ratings of 2015 releases as well. 

As well as this valid reaction.

However, after my report, and the mention of this by Thomas Thielen and Colin Tench on Facebook this one is quite obvious: http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=56611

He had only a review for T, and after this got raised, he suddenly puts in reviews that write down Steven Wilson, Nemo and Corvus Stone. It's a different member than the one mentioned above, but here I see happening exactly what David Danish Guldbamsen refers to...


I know from experience that cleaning up something like this is a mess, but this is wrong - and clearly Thomas Thielen is not happy about it either, so I'd say some action is in order.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 11:05
^Yeah yeah, they're gone, if only to give them a peace of mind this time. I hope they don't start analyzing patterns in every user rating cause it's not objective at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 11:12
Thanks GeorgeSmile

I have to admit that I didn't click the facebook link earlier onEmbarrassed I see what you mean now Angelo, and I agree.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 11:18
Originally posted by lucas lucas wrote:

Hey guys, calm down. Didn't you notice we all do the "work" for PA for free. So I consider that any reproach for a work that took me nearly half a day (it's not basic translation as I explained) is misplaced to say the least. Besides, Philippe, the author of the original version, doesn't want to register to PA and he gave me his "blessing" to publish the translation with my own account.
Thanks.


If you actually lost it cause you didn't save it I still have the copy if you need it. In the future we'd rather you promote a band with someone else's reviews through a forum thread about the band in question rather than posting it through your reviews on the main page.

Obvious off topic posts removed, let's try and keep it about review/rating discussion and reporting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angelo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 11:52
Originally posted by historian9 historian9 wrote:

^Yeah yeah, they're gone, if only to give them a peace of mind this time. I hope they don't start analyzing patterns in every user rating cause it's not objective at all.


Thank you. I just quoted it because it got lost in the fuzz. As for being objective - that may be true. This case was just too bloody obvious to ignore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angelo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2015 at 11:53
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Thanks GeorgeSmile

I have to admit that I didn't click the facebook link earlier onEmbarrassed I see what you mean now Angelo, and I agree.




Thanks, Dane!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LakeGlade12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2015 at 04:30
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Different topic - I think some real cleanup is in order.

Thomas Thielen urges to stop fake reviews on PA through his Facebook page 


With this guy as a nice example:


This almost got lost in a storm here.

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I have to admit that I always get a little...let's just say cautious, whenever I see somewhat under-the-radar acts receiving 5 after 5 star review, but it is very hard to establish proof of fraud, unless people are doing the multiple accounts from one IP thang, and even that is possible to circumvent. 
I'm not sure you can say that he purposely is pushing the album either, as he has some 3 and 4 star ratings of 2015 releases as well. 

As well as this valid reaction.

However, after my report, and the mention of this by Thomas Thielen and Colin Tench on Facebook this one is quite obvious: http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=56611

He had only a review for T, and after this got raised, he suddenly puts in reviews that write down Steven Wilson, Nemo and Corvus Stone. It's a different member than the one mentioned above, but here I see happening exactly what David Danish Guldbamsen refers to...


I know from experience that cleaning up something like this is a mess, but this is wrong - and clearly Thomas Thielen is not happy about it either, so I'd say some action is in order.


Hmm so those reviews got deleted in the end, which I agree with. I do like posting inappropriate ratings and reviews here from time to time as I do care about the site, but the above case has blurred my understanding about what is acceptable and what is not. I always thought as long as the reviews written were decent enough they would stay on the site, even if the user had a clear agenda in raising one artist and lowering other artists on PA. But the above scenario shows that this is not the case.  

So just to clarify would this review http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=1201496 be acceptable or not? He wrote a single 1 star review to SW's Raven and never used the site again. I thought that was allowed but now I don't know? I assume someone who writes a few 5 star reviews and then never posts again is fine?

Thanks Smile


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2015 at 12:38
^I don't have any trouble with that one for Wilson personally. The ones that were removed we kinda relied on the overall majority of 2015 ratings which is suspicious a bit, and when they are merely that they are left alone until they are pointed out to us basically this time by the artist (cause ratings really don't have that much effect in the long run and are tiresome to check and remove). It's not a judgement we carry out often cause it's unreliable, unless it's based on double IP's or it's one of those accounts that has all ones and fives.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angelo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2015 at 15:07
@LakeGlade12, @historian9: It's blurry indeed, and also a lot of work if someone has to keep track of it. However, it seems that T has no control over what is happening (despite calling out to his 'fans' to stop doing this). I spotted more again today...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angelo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2015 at 10:41
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

@LakeGlade12, @historian9: It's blurry indeed, and also a lot of work if someone has to keep track of it. However, it seems that T has no control over what is happening (despite calling out to his 'fans' to stop doing this). I spotted more again today...


Now I couldn't care less about the yearly top-100, but if the admins (who didn't reply to my post above, nor to a PM about this) decided to not look into this we may as well drop the whole rating system? It's kind of silly to see how T's Fragmentropy gets a whole bunch of 5-star reviews, from people who 1) have no other reviews, only ratings and 2) explicitly rate all albums above this one in the 2015 top-100 lower than 5 stars.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2015 at 11:09
^And they're gone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Life Syndrome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2015 at 13:26
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

@LakeGlade12, @historian9: It's blurry indeed, and also a lot of work if someone has to keep track of it. However, it seems that T has no control over what is happening (despite calling out to his 'fans' to stop doing this). I spotted more again today...


Now I couldn't care less about the yearly top-100, but if the admins (who didn't reply to my post above, nor to a PM about this) decided to not look into this we may as well drop the whole rating system? It's kind of silly to see how T's Fragmentropy gets a whole bunch of 5-star reviews, from people who 1) have no other reviews, only ratings and 2) explicitly rate all albums above this one in the 2015 top-100 lower than 5 stars.



Pretty sure that PA had trouble with T the last time around, too.
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