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proghairfunk View Drop Down
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Points: 99 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Black Sabbath??
    Posted: October 20 2006 at 13:58
So I know that Black Sabbath has been repeatedly denyed by PA and as much as i think they should be on PA this is not another annoying plea for them to be added.  I'd just like to know the reason they are not considered Proto-prog, as you won't be able to find a band in the entire Progressive Metal genre who doesn't owe them a debt of gratitude.
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Points: 46301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2006 at 15:20
well just read the places in which it was denyed. Ermm
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2006 at 15:27
As long as we don't have a Proto-Prog Metal category, I see no reason whatsoever to include them. To have the Proto-Prog category is bad enough, to fill it with bands which don't even fit in there would reduce the site's credibility even more.
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Points: 441 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2006 at 16:34
Originally posted by Philéas Philéas wrote:

As long as we don't have a Proto-Prog Metal category, I see no reason whatsoever to include them. To have the Proto-Prog category is bad enough, to fill it with bands which don't even fit in there would reduce the site's credibility even more.


The site's reducing it's credibility on it's own with Iron Maiden and Led Zeppelin.Pinch

Personally, I think Sabbath would fit better than either band.  Not that they should be included just because of that.  But I think they certainly have their prog moments.  But yeah, my vote goes for no Sabbath.


Edited by ResidentAlien - October 20 2006 at 16:34
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Points: 2537 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2006 at 16:40
Originally posted by proghairfunk proghairfunk wrote:

So I know that Black Sabbath has been repeatedly denyed by PA and as much as i think they should be on PA this is not another annoying plea for them to be added.  I'd just like to know the reason they are not considered Proto-prog, as you won't be able to find a band in the entire Progressive Metal genre who doesn't owe them a debt of gratitude.
 
I agree completely
It has to happen eventually
Every Progger worth his salt knows this
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Points: 27802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2006 at 16:48
I disagree.How did Sabbath influence prog metal?They influenced heavy metal,but prog metal?I don't see it.


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Points: 2537 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2006 at 17:01
I think  a lot of their riffs (and doom and gloom type imagery) are incorporated in a lot of recent prog metal.
One example I can think of is "As I am" by DT. It´s the exact same riff from the song "Black Sabbath" (only speeded up)
 
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Points: 13239 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2006 at 17:14
Originally posted by WaywardSon WaywardSon wrote:

I think  a lot of their riffs (and doom and gloom type imagery) are incorporated in a lot of recent prog metal.
One example I can think of is "As I am" by DT. It´s the exact same riff from the song "Black Sabbath" (only speeded up)
 


I try as hard as I can to avoid participating in these discussions, but you trigger a reaction here:

Doesn't your example imply that As I am is regressive, rather than making Sabbath progressive?
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Philéas View Drop Down
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2006 at 17:18
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

I try as hard as I can to avoid participating in these discussions, but you trigger a reaction here:

Doesn't your example imply that As I am is regressive, rather than making Sabbath progressive?


You are absolutely correct Angelo. And even if that would've made Sabbath somewhat Prog, it wouldn't have been enough to include them. 70's Hard Rock is 70's Hard Rock and nothing else, and it doesn't belong on this site. I wonder where Teaflax has gone... We need someone to tell people what's Prog and what's not...


Edited by Philéas - October 20 2006 at 17:19
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Points: 13239 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2006 at 17:22
Wow - a reaction within 4 minutes, even after 23:00....

Y'r right about Teaflax, haven't seen him for a while.
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2006 at 17:29
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Wow - a reaction within 4 minutes, even after 23:00....

Y'r right about Teaflax, haven't seen him for a while.


Me neither, I miss him in situations like this. As for my fast reaction, it's Friday, so I don't have to worry about getting up in time tomorrow.


Edited by Philéas - October 20 2006 at 17:30
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Points: 13239 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2006 at 18:53
Lol, it's tomorrow already now. And I'm still here....

And because I forgot to mention it: I do like Black Sabbath, and I do appreciate (older) Dream Theater - but liking or appreciation do not determine addition to the site.
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2006 at 10:07
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Lol, it's tomorrow already now. And I'm still here....

And because I forgot to mention it: I do like Black Sabbath, and I do appreciate (older) Dream Theater - but liking or appreciation do not determine addition to the site.


I agree. Sabbath are one of my favourite bands aswell. But it's important to realise that all music one likes isn't Prog just because some of it is, and to realise that Prog isn't some sort of medal of honour for music.
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Points: 2537 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2006 at 11:33
99% of Prog Metal bands would cite Black Sabbath as a definite influence.
Sorry guys, I stick to my guns, they belong in Proto Prog.
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2006 at 16:09
Do you even listen to Prog? Your idea of what makes a band Prog seems very vague.


Edited by Philéas - October 21 2006 at 16:09
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WaywardSon View Drop Down
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Points: 2537 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2006 at 16:29
Originally posted by Philéas Philéas wrote:

Do you even listen to Prog? Your idea of what makes a band Prog seems very vague.
 
Who me?!
I´m not saying they are prog, I´m saying they have influenced a lot of Prog Metal bands.
According to the definition of Proto Prog they should be here.
Your arguments are a bit vague.
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Philéas View Drop Down
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2006 at 17:33
Originally posted by WaywardSon WaywardSon wrote:

 
Who me?!
I´m not saying they are prog, I´m saying they have influenced a lot of Prog Metal bands.
According to the definition of Proto Prog they should be here.
Your arguments are a bit vague.


It was a question, not an argument. Anyway, as far as I know, we have no Proto-Prog Metal category on the site, and Sabbath released their debut in 1970, and surely didn't influence their Prog contemporaries, so they don't fit into Proto-Prog.


Edited by Philéas - October 21 2006 at 17:34
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Points: 2537 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2006 at 17:49
Black Sabbath actually started in 1968, but changed their name to Black Sabbath in 1969. Their debut was realeased in 1970 though.
Not saying they were a major influence on all genres, but on Prog Metal they certainly were.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2006 at 18:11
Originally posted by Philéas Philéas wrote:



Originally posted by WaywardSon WaywardSon wrote:


 

Who me?!

I´m not saying they are prog, I´m saying they have influenced a lot of Prog Metal bands.

According to the definition of Proto Prog they should be here.

Your arguments are a bit vague.


It was a question, not an argument. Anyway, as far as I know, we have
no Proto-Prog Metal category on the site, and Sabbath released their debut in 1970, and surely didn't
influence their Prog contemporaries, so they don't fit into Proto-Prog.


If Black Sabbath were ever to be considered as Proto-Prog, you'd have to add the "Metal" bit to the end, or it wouldn't make any sense, since their relation to classic Prog is time period alone (obviously and necessarily discounting the Rick Wakeman involvement, which doesn't add up to Prog Rock).


    
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2006 at 18:14
Originally posted by WaywardSon WaywardSon wrote:

Black Sabbath actually started in 1968, but changed their name to Black Sabbath in 1969. Their debut was realeased in 1970 though.
Not saying they were a major influence on all genres, but on Prog Metal they certainly were.


Like both of us have said, their debut was released in 1970, too late to influence the initial development of Prog Rock and thereby unfit for the Proto-Prog section. The Proto-Prog section is for bands whose music sparked off and influenced the Progressive Rock movement. Not for bands whose music influenced Prog Metal bands. Like I said, since we don't have a Proto-Prog Metal section on the site, Black Sabbath shouldn't be included.
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