Really long epics.

Wow the longest song I've ever heard was by Black Sabbath

chopper wrote: Abstrakt wrote: 50-60 minutes are But, album-long songs like "Thick As A Brick", "Amarok" etc. are fine. Bit of a contradiction there I feel. Amarok is just under 60 minutes.

Its actually 60:02, which I believe counts as 60 minutes.

A song should be as long as it NEEDS to be...sometimes 3:30 works, other times it takes 10 minutes, sometimes 30 or more....the composition should work itself out, in the hands of effective composers....

I acquired Light of Day, Dark of Darkness and at 60 minutes, it is still great. I like the epics because I think a band will tend to put the effort into the song to make sure it doesn't lose the listener half way through. 20-30 minutes is a perfect length for a good epic, songs such as: Octavarium, A Change Of Seasons, The Divine Wings Of Tragedy, The Odyssey, The Great Nothing, Supper's Ready, 2112, Tarkus and Close To The Edge (I know they are slightly below 20 mins)

Edited by mr_johnny_lee - November 03 2006 at 11:31

As people already mentioned here, the problem is not the length of the song itself, but the main problem is that prog has become synonym of long songs, so many bands push too hard to have long songs by overextending solos or linking many songs together as if it would make a song good. 20-minute songs or longer were made in the seventies but not so frequently. (Yes had 6 over 18 minutes songs in the 70's, Genesis 1, ELP 2, Pink Floyd 3, Jethro Tull 2, King Crimson 1, Renaissance 1, Rush 3). Nowadays many prog bands feel obliged to put a 20-minute song in their albuns, so that's why longer songs seem to be boring (as TFTO seems to be boring, because it's 20-minute tracks seem to be made with the purpose to be long. In fact the album was made to be considered an one-song album).

By the way, contrary to the general Flower Kings bashing, I like them very much. They are one of my favourite prog bands from the 90's on.

Green Carnation's Light of Day, Day of Darkness is a whopping 60 mins. Very interesting! Mood changes are awesome!

AtLossForWords wrote: I knew when I opened this thread that it was going to be some cheap shot at The Flower Kings.  I personally find "The Truth Will Set You Free" to be one of the best album openers ever.  It's a song with a lot of character, a lot of skill, and it's very well orgainized.  It just doesn't drift off into boring dischordal bullsh*t, it has a professional and serious structure.  I see no problem with a piece of music that goes on for thirty minutes if it's well composed.  "The Truth Will Set You Free" is one of those pieces.

I knew when I opened this thread that it was going to be some cheap shot at The Flower Kings.  I personally find "The Truth Will Set You Free" to be one of the best album openers ever.  It's a song with a lot of character, a lot of skill, and it's very well orgainized.  It just doesn't drift off into boring dischordal bullsh*t, it has a professional and serious structure.  I see no problem with a piece of music that goes on for thirty minutes if it's well composed.  "The Truth Will Set You Free" is one of those pieces.

On the whole, I agree with the notion that the lenght of a song is not important (but the thickness, women say...), it's the quality. However, when I am totally honest and start to criticize my favourite epics (not much glory in criticizing something you don't like in the first place), I can't think of any faultless one. (Which in itself is not surprising, because there is not such a thing as perfection, in my opinion.)
A few examples:
Rush:
The Fountain of Lamneth (It would have been musically better without II. Didacts And Narpets, also it should have been finished by a musically finale-like V. Bacchus Plateau, not by VI. The Fountain)
2112 (a more coherent epic in many ways, but V. Oracle: The Dream and VI. Soliloqui are a bit mediocre)
Cygnus X-1, Book II: Hemispheres (the slightly boring parts for me are II. Apollo - Bringer of Wisdom and III. Dionysus - Bringer of Love)
Genesis: Supper's Ready (V. Willow Farm is a clear downfall in the flow of otherwise brilliant song)
Jethro Tull: Thick as a Brick (just before and after side A changes into side B, there are a few minutes of pointless drumming, and directionless flute playing, and some weaker moments elsewhere as well)
Marillion: Misplaced Childhood (I think of this as one album-length track and one of my favourite albums of all time, but I have to admit that Waterhole and Lords of the Backstage are weaker than other parts of the piece and there are some "dead" moments during Blind Curve as well)
Pink Floyd:
Atom Heart Mother (some of the choir stuff irritates me)
Echoes (I would personally like to delete the "whale singing" or "bird singing" fragment, or what ever that is in the middle of the track)
Shine on You Crazy Diamond (Even this song, maybe my ultimate favourite track by any band, would be better without the short 8th part, before the divine piano/keyboard finale by Wright)
However, I love the idea of side-length or even album-length epic tracks and I easily forgive a weaker part here and there, because I appreciate the ambitious effort of trying to create something as bold as a 20-50 minute track. Better that way than always the usual 3-5 minutes of easily digestable stardard songs. Also, epics give the lyricist a better chance to deepen and variate a theme or a storyline he wants to express. Musically epics - at least at their best - can allow the writers more space to gradually develop atmospheric instrumental passages (not only egocentric soloing!), such as Shine on and Echoes.

Epics are, by and large, immensely tedious. wasn't there a band called Galleon that specialised in this? Philip Hensher, in an excellent recent article for The Guardian, rightly pointed out that rock musicians cannot think in large musical paragraphs without sounding, well, crap. Close to the Edge and Gates of Delirium are probably the ultimate triumphs - they condense so much activity, allow it to ebb and flow organically - it all seems so natural. Unlike Topographic, all of whose tracks - as one poster rightly pointed out - could have done with a little judicious editing. And certainly unlike the almost inconceivably overrated mess that is Thick as a Brick - OK, so sue me - of which the only positive that can be dredged up is 'at least they tried'. Mannered, dramatically and emotionally incoherent, ludicrously literal and episodic, sophomoric, emotionally incontinent - so many good songs sacrificed on the altar of one man's vanity and pretentiousness. Could have been the greatest Tull album ever (after the incomparable Songs from the Wood)- instead it's one of the worst, quite fantastically boring and didactic, worse even than ELP at their worst. Please, please don't invoke people like Mahler and Bruckner - using their 30-minute movements to justify rubbish and flatulent note-spinning by middle aged rock stars really is indecent - and BTW I don't include the one poster who mentioned Mahler.