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Poll Question: Which ofthis band is more baroque?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
24 [80.00%]
2 [6.67%]
1 [3.33%]
3 [10.00%]
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: More Baroque band poll
    Posted: November 20 2006 at 10:28
Comment? Uhm...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2006 at 10:32
The most baroque (in a negative context) band is Dream Theater, if you ask me.

I haven't heard PFM, but none of the others are really baroque (regardless wheter baroque is negative or positive in this case). Genesis and especially Gentle Giant have many medieval and folky moments though.

Edit: I'd also like to comment on your signature: No, Prog Rock is not Contemporary Classical Music, as Contemporary Classical Music is a genre on its own. Prog Rock does take a lot of influence from that genre though.


Edited by Philéas - November 20 2006 at 10:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2006 at 11:00
Gentle Giant by far, but where´s Jethro Tull
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2006 at 15:11
PFM's Appena Un Po from Per Un Amico features probably the most baroque sounding section I've heard in non-baroque music. It sounds almost like a fugue with modern instrumentation + a harpsichord, which was also very common in the baroque period.

That said, Gentle Giant may be more baroque overall.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2006 at 17:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2006 at 18:16
Originally posted by Philéas Philéas wrote:

The most baroque (in a negative context) band is Dream Theater, if you ask me.

I haven't heard PFM, but none of the others are really baroque (regardless wheter baroque is negative or positive in this case). Genesis and especially Gentle Giant have many medieval and folky moments though.

Edit: I'd also like to comment on your signature: No, Prog Rock is not Contemporary Classical Music, as Contemporary Classical Music is a genre on its own. Prog Rock does take a lot of influence from that genre though.
 
 Gentle Giant is baroque by excellence... they are the ones that use fugues, canons and tonal shifts the most... or better said: baroque chamber music... if you listened to spanish baroque music you'll know what I mean.. it can't really be called medieval... early renaissance perhaps in some points
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2006 at 19:35
Originally posted by Philéas Philéas wrote:

The most baroque (in a negative context) band is Dream Theater, if you ask me.

I haven't heard PFM, but none of the others are really baroque (regardless wheter baroque is negative or positive in this case). Genesis and especially Gentle Giant have many medieval and folky moments though.

Edit: I'd also like to comment on your signature: No, Prog Rock is not Contemporary Classical Music, as Contemporary Classical Music is a genre on its own. Prog Rock does take a lot of influence from that genre though.

Why would barroque be a negative thing?Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2006 at 20:52
This poll is as no-contest as any... Gentle Giant is not only the MORE but the ONLY band here with baroque elements.... (although they have more "contemporary 20th century" elements, but every opnce in a while they add clavicembalo and also, their "filling" their sound with a lot of music and melodies is baroque.... but off course their most baroque element: COUNTERPOINT....
 
No contest here....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2006 at 23:06
Originally posted by el böthy el böthy wrote:

Originally posted by Philéas Philéas wrote:

The most baroque (in a negative context) band is Dream Theater, if you ask me.

I haven't heard PFM, but none of the others are really baroque (regardless wheter baroque is negative or positive in this case). Genesis and especially Gentle Giant have many medieval and folky moments though.

Edit: I'd also like to comment on your signature: No, Prog Rock is not Contemporary Classical Music, as Contemporary Classical Music is a genre on its own. Prog Rock does take a lot of influence from that genre though.

Why would barroque be a negative thing?Confused


In addition to describing an artistic/musical era, the term baroque also means...i guess...ostentatious or overly decorative..correct me if my definition is off

I'm sorry if you knew that, el bothy, and were just taking arguing with phileas' (and many others', at that) condemnation of DT for being "too showy/pretentious/bombastic/ [insert word here]
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2006 at 00:41
GENTLE GIANT...
without a doubt...
... E N E L B U N K E R...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2006 at 00:54
Gentle Giant is late Medieval basically, I don't find the connection with Baroque, this wopuld make them Gothic oriented in strict sense.
 
Baroque came after Renaissance era that comes after Gothic.
 
Try Par Lindh Project and I would agree.
 
Iván
 
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2006 at 01:02
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Gentle Giant is late Medieval basically, I don't find the connection with Baroque, this wopuld make them Gothic oriented in strict sense.
 

Baroque came after Renaissance era that comes after Gothic.

 

Try Par Lindh Project and I would agree.

 

Iván

 

    
I should check this one
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2006 at 03:36
um... Banco del Mutuo Soccorso. Proof: Traccia II.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2006 at 19:41
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Gentle Giant is late Medieval basically, I don't find the connection with Baroque, this wopuld make them Gothic oriented in strict sense.
 
Baroque came after Renaissance era that comes after Gothic.
 
Try Par Lindh Project and I would agree.
 
Iván
 
 
 In baroque music, you find many attributes that could be found in GG... although the main imagery is reminiscent of mediaeval music... the arrangements contain baroque elements... take "Talybont" as an example... the theme is certainly based on mediaeval fair music... but the pan flutes play in a message-response modality (canon), which was exploited in the baroque era or late renaissance era. While in mediaeval music there was polyphonic music, in the early baroque and late renaissance era the fugal mode, which if I'm correct consists of a contrapuntal composition determined by subject-response in transposed keys between 3 or more voices... GG used this format a lot, specially on Octopus.
 
 I also find some resemblance with baroque composer Jordi Savall when I listen to GG. you should check it out.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2006 at 02:11
Do we mean baroque like overly ornamental? Or do we mean overly layered? Either way, Tull.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2006 at 03:23
There are different meanings of "baroque". As Ivan said, Baroque was a period of the arts and culture, following the Renaissance (so it's are the 17th and 18th century); some include Rococo to Baroque. It's main figures are Bernini for architecture and sculpture and Rubens for painting, amongst others; though they lived a little later then the actual Baroque era, the most important musicians that are called baroque are Bach and Handel. Also, it is important to know that the Baroque was contemporary with Classicism; Baroque was italian/spanish/german based, Classicism was french based.
The features of Baroque were so strong that many critics thought it would be a gould idea to extract the pattern and apply it to any cultural eras: this was made in an absurd way (as patterns emerge IN and BECAUSE of the time they belong to), so then we had baroque in antiquity, mediaeval age, modernism, etc...
It is still interesting to cautiously describe the pattern and compare it to contempoary music without the intention of drawing conclusions; (it's better anyway then calling "baroque" something using baroque elements outside the baroque spirit). The best way to get the pattern is to compare Baroque art with Classical art, as they used the same elements in different ways. Then, Baroque principles are:
 
1. Classicism (C) - don't use more elements then you need to get the desired effect. Baroque (B) - if you get the effect by these elements, you should increase their quantity to be sure you emphasised the effect.
2. C - go for order; B - the best thing is discreetly organised disorder.
3. C - go for clarity; B - it's ok to lose clarity if you gain in effect
4. C - rationalise each aspect; B - don't mind interiour logic, go for the overall effect
5. C - do not show personal options, be objective; B - be subjective
6. C - be poetical; B - be theatrical
7. C - look for the ideal (hence cold and abstract, in a way, classical works); B - be natural (hence works with such an emphasised "natural-ity" that look absurd; just think of Ruberns' great, fat, fleshy ladies).
 
 
first set of observations - it is interesting to compare classic rock to prog by these items; i think prog tends for baroque and classic rock for classical; prog is apparently dis-ordered and classic rock looks very clear; prog emphasises the effect by using large quantity of musical "material", classical rock also emphasises, but only it's much more simple tunes; prog is theatrical, classical rock usually isn't; on the other side, prog is more objective and classical rock is more subjective; prog has more "ideal" and classical rock wants to be "natural".
 
second set of observations - prog is so vast that one could draw a scale of prog "baroque-ness", according to the described principles. Mine goes like this:
1. pure "baroque" style music - most of ELP
2. "baroque" oriented - Tull's TAAB or Pink Floyd's Ummagumma
3. good ballance between "baroque" and "classical" features - Yes' CTTE or Pink Floyd's WYWH
4. "classical" oriented - maybe Genesis, but I know it's music too little; perhaps, Crimson is more entitled here (imo).
5. pure "classical" (or at least at the measure of how's that possible in modernity) - Pink Floyd's DSOTM.
 
What do you think of all this?
 
 
PS. third: - I suggested Bach and Handel are not well described as baroque because they live after the historical Baroque era; now, as you can see, they also fit more to the "classical" principles I described. This is the reason for which they are much more accurately described as "pre-classical" musicians.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2006 at 03:34
Originally posted by andu andu wrote:

There are different meanings of "baroque". As Ivan said, Baroque was a period of the arts and culture, following the Renaissance (so it's are the 17th and 18th century); some include Rococo to Baroque. It's main figures are Bernini for architecture and sculpture and Rubens for painting, amongst others; though they lived a little later then the actual Baroque era, the most important musicians that are called baroque are Bach and Handel. Also, it is important to know that the Baroque was contemporary with Classicism; Baroque was italian/spanish/german based, Classicism was french based.
The features of Baroque were so strong that many critics thought it would be a gould idea to extract the pattern and apply it to any cultural eras: this was made in an absurd way (as patterns emerge IN and BECAUSE of the time they belong to), so then we had baroque in antiquity, mediaeval age, modernism, etc...
It is still interesting to cautiously describe the pattern and compare it to contempoary music without the intention of drawing conclusions; (it's better anyway then calling "baroque" something using baroque elements outside the baroque spirit). The best way to get the pattern is to compare Baroque art with Classical art, as they used the same elements in different ways. Then, Baroque principles are:
 
1. Classicism (C) - don't use more elements then you need to get the desired effect. Baroque (B) - if you get the effect by these elements, you should increase their quantity to be sure you emphasised the effect.
2. C - go for order; B - the best thing is discreetly organised disorder.
3. C - go for clarity; B - it's ok to lose clarity if you gain in effect
4. C - rationalise each aspect; B - don't mind interiour logic, go for the overall effect
5. C - do not show personal options, be objective; B - be subjective
6. C - be poetical; B - be theatrical
7. C - look for the ideal (hence cold and abstract, in a way, classical works); B - be natural (hence works with such an emphasised "natural-ity" that look absurd; just think of Ruberns' great, fat, fleshy ladies).
 
 
first set of observations - it is interesting to compare classic rock to prog by these items; i think prog tends for baroque and classic rock for classical; prog is apparently dis-ordered and classic rock looks very clear; prog emphasises the effect by using large quantity of musical "material", classical rock also emphasises, but only it's much more simple tunes; prog is theatrical, classical rock usually isn't; on the other side, prog is more objective and classical rock is more subjective; prog has more "ideal" and classical rock wants to be "natural".
 
second set of observations - prog is so vast that one could draw a scale of prog "baroque-ness", according to the described principles. Mine goes like this:
1. pure "baroque" style music - most of ELP
2. "baroque" oriented - Tull's TAAB or Pink Floyd's Ummagumma
3. good ballance between "baroque" and "classical" features - Yes' CTTE or Pink Floyd's WYWH
4. "classical" oriented - maybe Genesis, but I know it's music too little; perhaps, Crimson is more entitled here (imo).
5. pure "classical" (or at least at the measure of how's that possible in modernity) - Pink Floyd's DSOTM.
 
What do you think of all this?
 
 
PS. third: - I suggested Bach and Handel are not well described as baroque because they live after the historical Baroque era; now, as you can see, they also fit more to the "classical" principles I described. This is the reason for which they are much more accurately described as "pre-classical" musicians.
 
As per my ancient understanding of this lot, the difference between classical and baroque is thus:
 
Classical is a main tune, the "melody," if you will, played by a certain body of the orchestra. The rest of the orchestra backs it up.
 
Baroque, the earlier style, was chamber music. It was played by a quartet (unknown (by me) variety), in which each instrument played a different line of music. All the tunes were complete on their own, but perfectly suited to be played together. Since each line of music was independent (both musically and environmentally (?)), the musicians could swap music, and different instruments could play different lines of music.
 
...Make sense?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2006 at 05:18
Originally posted by The Whistler The Whistler wrote:

As per my ancient understanding of this lot, the difference between classical and baroque is thus:
 
Classical is a main tune, the "melody," if you will, played by a certain body of the orchestra. The rest of the orchestra backs it up.
 
Baroque, the earlier style, was chamber music. It was played by a quartet (unknown (by me) variety), in which each instrument played a different line of music. All the tunes were complete on their own, but perfectly suited to be played together. Since each line of music was independent (both musically and environmentally (?)), the musicians could swap music, and different instruments could play different lines of music.
 
...Make sense?
 
Of course, it makes a lot of sense. It's very good to use a notion with multiple semantics whilst explaining the way you're using it. The difference you explain is accurate, I only want to add these: the adjective "baroque" was created by extracting the patterns of only plastic arts and arhitecture of that certain era, and not also of music. This was because the music of the period was different in ways than the plastic arts and architecture. Still, later music from the 17th century was called "baroque" because it was created in the Baroque era, and, I repeat, not because it had "baroque" features. ("The original meaning of "baroque" is "irregularly shaped pearl", a strikingly fitting characterization of the architecture and design of this period; later, the name came to be applied also to its music. Baroque music forms a major portion of the classical music canon." - as wikipedia accurately says it). This is why "baroque" music isn't actually "baroque". The only inovation in music in the Baroque era that was actually baroque was Opera.
 
As you said, the difference is between "polyphony" with "counterpoint" on one side and "homophony" on the other, using words a little more precise. In this case, we could do a totally different scale than the one i proposed.
 
Further reading recomendations for Baroque/baroque:
 
All great books.
 
And trust my words, I have a degree on this stuff. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2006 at 11:09
Originally posted by The Whistler The Whistler wrote:

Originally posted by andu andu wrote:

There are different meanings of "baroque". As Ivan said, Baroque was a period of the arts and culture, following the Renaissance (so it's are the 17th and 18th century); some include Rococo to Baroque. It's main figures are Bernini for architecture and sculpture and Rubens for painting, amongst others; though they lived a little later then the actual Baroque era, the most important musicians that are called baroque are Bach and Handel. Also, it is important to know that the Baroque was contemporary with Classicism; Baroque was italian/spanish/german based, Classicism was french based.
The features of Baroque were so strong that many critics thought it would be a gould idea to extract the pattern and apply it to any cultural eras: this was made in an absurd way (as patterns emerge IN and BECAUSE of the time they belong to), so then we had baroque in antiquity, mediaeval age, modernism, etc...
It is still interesting to cautiously describe the pattern and compare it to contempoary music without the intention of drawing conclusions; (it's better anyway then calling "baroque" something using baroque elements outside the baroque spirit). The best way to get the pattern is to compare Baroque art with Classical art, as they used the same elements in different ways. Then, Baroque principles are:
 
1. Classicism (C) - don't use more elements then you need to get the desired effect. Baroque (B) - if you get the effect by these elements, you should increase their quantity to be sure you emphasised the effect.
2. C - go for order; B - the best thing is discreetly organised disorder.
3. C - go for clarity; B - it's ok to lose clarity if you gain in effect
4. C - rationalise each aspect; B - don't mind interiour logic, go for the overall effect
5. C - do not show personal options, be objective; B - be subjective
6. C - be poetical; B - be theatrical
7. C - look for the ideal (hence cold and abstract, in a way, classical works); B - be natural (hence works with such an emphasised "natural-ity" that look absurd; just think of Ruberns' great, fat, fleshy ladies).
 
 
first set of observations - it is interesting to compare classic rock to prog by these items; i think prog tends for baroque and classic rock for classical; prog is apparently dis-ordered and classic rock looks very clear; prog emphasises the effect by using large quantity of musical "material", classical rock also emphasises, but only it's much more simple tunes; prog is theatrical, classical rock usually isn't; on the other side, prog is more objective and classical rock is more subjective; prog has more "ideal" and classical rock wants to be "natural".
 
second set of observations - prog is so vast that one could draw a scale of prog "baroque-ness", according to the described principles. Mine goes like this:
1. pure "baroque" style music - most of ELP
2. "baroque" oriented - Tull's TAAB or Pink Floyd's Ummagumma
3. good ballance between "baroque" and "classical" features - Yes' CTTE or Pink Floyd's WYWH
4. "classical" oriented - maybe Genesis, but I know it's music too little; perhaps, Crimson is more entitled here (imo).
5. pure "classical" (or at least at the measure of how's that possible in modernity) - Pink Floyd's DSOTM.
 
What do you think of all this?
 
 
PS. third: - I suggested Bach and Handel are not well described as baroque because they live after the historical Baroque era; now, as you can see, they also fit more to the "classical" principles I described. This is the reason for which they are much more accurately described as "pre-classical" musicians.
 
As per my ancient understanding of this lot, the difference between classical and baroque is thus:
 
Classical is a main tune, the "melody," if you will, played by a certain body of the orchestra. The rest of the orchestra backs it up.
 
Baroque, the earlier style, was chamber music. It was played by a quartet (unknown (by me) variety), in which each instrument played a different line of music. All the tunes were complete on their own, but perfectly suited to be played together. Since each line of music was independent (both musically and environmentally (?)), the musicians could swap music, and different instruments could play different lines of music.
 
...Make sense?
 
 That description of classical is, the way I see it, the description of a sonata, which was the musical form to arrive in classical music
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2006 at 11:27
Gentle Giant
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