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billbuckner View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2007 at 15:55
I've always thought that the upper length for a single album should be 45-50 minutes, and a double should be 100-110 minutes.


Live albums, though, the more the merrier.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2007 at 16:22
Depends more on the quality of the album than the time. Sometimes a 40-minute album bores me and a 60-minute album doesn't.

Sometimes I feel bored by 70+ minute albums of newer bands, but not because they are long, just because I don't appreciate it too much.

Saying that artist that do not compose 60 minutes of songs per year are worse than the ones that do not is ridiculous. Most of the mainstream music is spoiled because the artists do not have freedom to make their songs the way they want them to be. Bad music can be done at the rate of 60 minute per day. Good music is like any other work of art. Shakespeare could have written a piece per week, but probably they would be ridiculous.  Beethovent could have composed 1000 symphonies and probably he would be forgotten. My favorite albums usually clock at 40 minutes and if I had to buy them again, I would pay them 5 times more than a 70 minute album that is not that good, because buying an album that I don't like is a waste of money and a ripoff.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2007 at 17:56
Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

It's all good, as long as there's no filler.  80 minutes of joy is better than 60, and frankly, 20 minutes of filler doesn't HURT anything.  If you feel that parts of the album are filler, don't listen to those parts.  It's pretty simple.  


20 minutes of filler kills the albums potential. An album can have the best 60 minutes of music but if theres 20 minutes of filler the album is a MAX of 4 stars. Skipping over tracks (especially in a concept album) almost defeats the purpose of albums as a whole.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2007 at 18:03
Yeah, Paradox Hotel is 1 minute too long.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2007 at 18:04
Originally posted by Glueman Glueman wrote:

Originally posted by el böthy el böthy wrote:

Originally posted by Glueman Glueman wrote:

No album goes on too long. Given that I don't accept the term "filler" - something I might find a "throwaway" may be someone else's favourite. The longer the better for me. In fact, anything less than 50 minutes is a blatant rip-off unless it's priced at a budget cost. I expect at least 60 mins nowadays.
Has no one ever heard of the "stop" button or the "next track" button?

You know, putting money in the discusion along with art is never a wise thing to do, only people who think around money do it. Art can´t be compared or messured (ar at least shouldnt be) with money. Saying you think an album under 50 minutes with the same price than one from at least 60 is a rip off implys that you dont really care for quality but quantity. It seems you prefer,  a band that writes 45 minutes of great material and they add 15 minutes of just so so material, than to have a 45 minutes long masterpiece... because you pay less, or have a "fair" price. Thats like buying big paintings, just because they occupy more space than little ones, even if they arent betterConfused
 
 

It does not imply that! If you choose to mis-interpret my post then that's your problem.

 

The quality of a piece is judged by the listener. It's up to them to decide what proportion of an album they actually like. No two people are going to view a record the same way.

 

Records were 25-45 minutes long due to the constraints of vinyl. There is no excuse to put out a short album nowadays. If an artist cannot fill 60 minutes of quality music, for the sake of argument, per year, then that says more about their lack of creativity than anything else. Other than re-issued pieces with bonus tracks, I do not accept that anyone adds sub-par material just to pad out a release. It’s an extreme insult to the artist to presume that those few tracks that you may not like are to be considered “filler”. There is NO such thing as filler. And if a person cannot sit through 60 minutes + of an artist then that also says as much about attention deficit as it does the quality of the material, which is, again, in the ear of the beholder.

 

And it’s not juxtaposing art and money. When a product is marketed it should be priced according to various criteria – one of which is value for money. To sell two records for the same price – one of which is 30 minutes and one of which is 79 minutes is a blatant rip-off.

 

 

And the words are spelt "MEASURED" and IMPLIES"!


First of all, I REEEEEEEAAAAALLY apologize for writting measure and implies wrong. You know, english is not my mother tongue, I pretty much learned it by myself. Are you so good in spanish? Really nice of you!

Second, you say its insulting to an artist to call some tracks fillers, but you say "f an artist cannot fill 60 minutes of quality music, for the sake of argument, per year, then that says more about their lack of creativity than anything else"...now, I find that a bit insulting too! And here you even insult the listener " And if a person cannot sit through 60 minutes + of an artist then that also says as much about attention deficit as it does the quality of the material"...thats not a nice thing to sayWink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2007 at 18:08
Originally posted by el böthy el böthy wrote:

Originally posted by Glueman Glueman wrote:

Originally posted by el böthy el böthy wrote:

Originally posted by Glueman Glueman wrote:

No album goes on too long. Given that I don't accept the term "filler" - something I might find a "throwaway" may be someone else's favourite. The longer the better for me. In fact, anything less than 50 minutes is a blatant rip-off unless it's priced at a budget cost. I expect at least 60 mins nowadays.
Has no one ever heard of the "stop" button or the "next track" button?

You know, putting money in the discusion along with art is never a wise thing to do, only people who think around money do it. Art can´t be compared or messured (ar at least shouldnt be) with money. Saying you think an album under 50 minutes with the same price than one from at least 60 is a rip off implys that you dont really care for quality but quantity. It seems you prefer,  a band that writes 45 minutes of great material and they add 15 minutes of just so so material, than to have a 45 minutes long masterpiece... because you pay less, or have a "fair" price. Thats like buying big paintings, just because they occupy more space than little ones, even if they arent betterConfused
 
Agreed with El Bothy...
 
Glueman's response was uncalled for... and insulted not just El Bothy, but even me...
 

It does not imply that! If you choose to mis-interpret my post then that's your problem.

 

The quality of a piece is judged by the listener. It's up to them to decide what proportion of an album they actually like. No two people are going to view a record the same way.

 

Records were 25-45 minutes long due to the constraints of vinyl. There is no excuse to put out a short album nowadays. If an artist cannot fill 60 minutes of quality music, for the sake of argument, per year, then that says more about their lack of creativity than anything else. Other than re-issued pieces with bonus tracks, I do not accept that anyone adds sub-par material just to pad out a release. It’s an extreme insult to the artist to presume that those few tracks that you may not like are to be considered “filler”. There is NO such thing as filler. And if a person cannot sit through 60 minutes + of an artist then that also says as much about attention deficit as it does the quality of the material, which is, again, in the ear of the beholder.

 

And it’s not juxtaposing art and money. When a product is marketed it should be priced according to various criteria – one of which is value for money. To sell two records for the same price – one of which is 30 minutes and one of which is 79 minutes is a blatant rip-off.

 

 

And the words are spelt "MEASURED" and IMPLIES"!


First of all, I REEEEEEEAAAAALLY apologize for writting measure and implies wrong. You know, english is not my mother tongue, I pretty much learned it by myself. Are you so good in spanish? Really nice of you!

Second, you say its insulting to an artist to call some tracks fillers, but you say "f an artist cannot fill 60 minutes of quality music, for the sake of argument, per year, then that says more about their lack of creativity than anything else"...now, I find that a bit insulting too! And here you even insult the listener " And if a person cannot sit through 60 minutes + of an artist then that also says as much about attention deficit as it does the quality of the material"...thats not a nice thing to sayWink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2007 at 20:12
Originally posted by Walker Walker wrote:

I think "filler" is in the ears of the beholder. If a band has recorded something that they fill proud enough of to present to the public, then by all means present it. If I don't like it, I can program it out. In this way, I can program out the songs I'm not fond of, and still have a full length playlist. So, go ahead and fill up those CD's! (Yes, I know Mr. Stolt, I don't have to tell you this!)



it is... face it ... some groups just don't have 80 minutes of great music in them.  Back in the day.. you concentrate and NAIL a 35 to 45 minute album.  That's why ... bah... I'll leave it alone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2007 at 22:35
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Anything by Dream Theater does go on way too long. "Awake" just seems to go on forever.

*ducks under flame shield, seeing The T. appear on the horizon*Wink
 
AngryAngryAngry                           AngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngry
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Two things:
 
1) CryCryCry Why the cheap shots, why CryCryCry 
 
2) When I come, you won't have time to duck. My anger is manifested so swiftly, you will think a dream theater concert just ended, so brief and to-the-point my vendetta will be.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2007 at 22:36
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

[QUOTE=Ghost Rider]Anything by Dream Theater does go on way too long. "Awake" just seems to go on forever.

*ducks under flame shield, seeing The T. appear on the horizon*Wink
 
Ahh, the lady does make a good pointLOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2007 at 22:38
I can't stand 74 + albums. Too much. And sometimes, too much of nothing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2007 at 22:39
1 word: La Te Ra Lus
still great though
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2007 at 23:00
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Anything by Dream Theater does go on way too long. "Awake" just seems to go on forever.*ducks under flame shield, seeing The T. appear on the horizon*Wink


Erotomania is the only good track on that record anyway.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2007 at 23:14
We Can't Dance by Genesis - way too long. If the quality slips then the album can become too long. Remember also with longer albums comes longer lapses between releases. It is all relative!! Personally I preferred the 50 odd minutes of Genesis albums in the 70's. Perfect length for albums, Wind and Wuthering and ATTWT! and about one and a half years between albums. Give me that anyday to waiting 10 years for a new Roger Waters release ( which would obviously be excellent) :-)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2007 at 00:17
I never listen to an entire album once I've determined which tracks are good and which aren't good (after two or three listens).   Even my favorite artists overstay their welcome after about twenty minutes, at which time I put on something completely different.  I'm not one of the "prog or nothing" people that you often find here; a typical listening session spans a broad range of genres, from Medieval to Experimental Electronic.  When you have thousands of albums, the only way to listen to all of them is not to listen to all of any one. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2007 at 00:36
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Anything by Dream Theater does go on way too long. "Awake" just seems to go on forever.

*ducks under flame shield, seeing The T. appear on the horizon*Wink
 
AngryAngryAngry                           AngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngry
              Angry                                       Angry
              Angry                                       Angry
              Angry                                       Angry
AngryAngryAngry                                          Angry
 
 
Two things:
 
1) CryCryCry Why the cheap shots, why CryCryCry 
 
2) When I come, you won't have time to duck. My anger is manifested so swiftly, you will think a dream theater concert just ended, so brief and to-the-point my vendetta will be.
 
 
Big%20smileBig%20smileBig%20smile


Theo (I think this is your name, right?), that was NOT  a cheap shot. I may have poked fun at DT in the past (before I became Admin, that is), but what I wrote above is deadly serious. I have got six DT albums at home, but the only one I've managed to listen to relatively often and enjoy is "Images & Words". Please read my DT reviews if you want confirmation that I can tackle the issue in a serious, objective way.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2007 at 05:33
Originally posted by Glueman Glueman wrote:

It does not imply that! If you choose to mis-interpret my post then that's your problem.

 

The quality of a piece is judged by the listener. It's up to them to decide what proportion of an album they actually like. No two people are going to view a record the same way.

 

Records were 25-45 minutes long due to the constraints of vinyl. There is no excuse to put out a short album nowadays. If an artist cannot fill 60 minutes of quality music, for the sake of argument, per year, then that says more about their lack of creativity than anything else. Other than re-issued pieces with bonus tracks, I do not accept that anyone adds sub-par material just to pad out a release. It’s an extreme insult to the artist to presume that those few tracks that you may not like are to be considered “filler”. There is NO such thing as filler. And if a person cannot sit through 60 minutes + of an artist then that also says as much about attention deficit as it does the quality of the material, which is, again, in the ear of the beholder.

 

And it’s not juxtaposing art and money. When a product is marketed it should be priced according to various criteria – one of which is value for money. To sell two records for the same price – one of which is 30 minutes and one of which is 79 minutes is a blatant rip-off.

 

 

And the words are spelt "MEASURED" and IMPLIES"!

Interesting thoughts. Still, I would say some of your arguments do not hold. Sometimes artists do not put out large amounts of material not because they can't , but because they restrain themselves in order to achieve higher perfection (if I may say so). I'll give you some examples. Cezanne is considered one of the greatest artists of modern times. However, he was so severe on himself that he often distroyed his own work in anger, every time he felt the didn't "capture the initial emotion" on canvas exactly the way he wanted to have it. Probably many of the paintings he destroyed were also masterpieces - he did have a blustering temper and it's possible that many of his outbursts weren't justified. However, what he left us is one of the greatest modern artistic patrimonis. An extreme example, now: one of the greatest dutch painters (among Rembrandt and Van Gogh; and he's also one of the greatest ever) is Jan Vermeer. His work consists of about 40 paintings and it's higly probable that the complete number of works he's done (including those that were lost for ever) is only larger by a few tens. What do you choose - do you choose to say he's a lesser great artist because he didn't have the inspiration to leave us several hundred works (as other geniuses did) or are you thankful for the way he managed his effort in order to do leave us 40 masterpieces? I guess that by your arguments Vermeer is just a minor artist...
One other issue. You say a 40 minutes long record shouldn't be payed the same as a 60 minutes long record. I know that in the free market, prices are only primarily based on the characteristics (quality & quantity) of the product; the final product is always chosen in direct relation with the estimation of the possible buyers' intent to give for the product. For example, even if I can objectively agree that the X album is equally good as the Y album, I would agree to pay a lot more for the Y album because the artist or the music has a stronger (and probable impossbile to define by words) appeal for me - or I simply am much more interested in it even if I can't know what the album contains... There are other criteria then lenght for asseising an album's value, you know. I would pay more for 30 minutes of brilliance then I would pay for 70 minutes of just good music!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2007 at 07:55
 It's really subjective. For me 28 minutes of Reign in Blood is longer than TFTO and The Lamb together.
 Among my all time fave albums there are under 40 minutes long and some double albums.
 Some albums contain unnecessary tracks like You not Me on FII, so they are too long with 1 or 2 tracks, but that's a very big flaw.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2007 at 14:56
The truth is, this all depends on the listener.  As good as Dream Theater is, personally I have trouble paying attention to Scenes From a Memory, while fans of the band call it a masterpiece.  I happen to think that all the Flower Kings albums are quite good.  I don't consider any of them to have "filler".  There are a few songs I don't care for (probably about 5 or 6, mostly shorter poppy songs), but they are not "filler" to everyone.   But again, other people would probably find an album like Unfold The Future interminably long.  I think every single track on it is fantastic, with only 2 or 3 songs being merely "good".

So there are albums that seem too long to me that are under 40 minutes, and some that are 140 minutes that I absolutely love.   My only real issue with long albums is not that I loose interest or can't pay attention, but that it is such a time commitment to listen to them.  That is why I listen to stuff in my car, on my MP3 player, while doing dishes, etc.

Also, I never skip songs (except bonus tracks at the end of some remastered albums), because I always feel like the artist put them there for a reason.  For the most part, if I like a few songs, I like the whole album.  Prog bands tend to be good like that for me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2007 at 16:25
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Anything by Dream Theater does go on way too long. "Awake" just seems to go on forever.

*ducks under flame shield, seeing The T. appear on the horizon*Wink
 
AngryAngryAngry                           AngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngry
              Angry                                       Angry
              Angry                                       Angry
              Angry                                       Angry
AngryAngryAngry                                          Angry
 
 
Two things:
 
1) CryCryCry Why the cheap shots, why CryCryCry 
 
2) When I come, you won't have time to duck. My anger is manifested so swiftly, you will think a dream theater concert just ended, so brief and to-the-point my vendetta will be.
 
 
Big%20smileBig%20smileBig%20smile


Theo (I think this is your name, right?), that was NOT  a cheap shot. I may have poked fun at DT in the past (before I became Admin, that is), but what I wrote above is deadly serious. I have got six DT albums at home, but the only one I've managed to listen to relatively often and enjoy is "Images & Words". Please read my DT reviews if you want confirmation that I can tackle the issue in a serious, objective way.
 
Teo, without the H
 
Kidding I was, no problem of course. Big%20smile
 
But I'm DEAD SERIOUS about my coming vendetta if you keep that attitude!!!!
 
Big%20smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2007 at 16:53
'Awake' is actually one of DT's best albums to my ears. It's quite diverse, with some of their most progressive material- 'The Mirror', 'Erotomania'/ and 'Space Dye Vest' I rate very highly.
 
I think whether albums go on too long is an entirely subjective opinion. For example, some fans and even band members (Rick Wakeman stand up) dislike TFTO for its length but I honestly could say I love it from beginning to end. 'The Ancient' aside, which is a real experimental track and quite unlike anything they'd done before, I don't see why it causes such controversy. It's a halfway house between CTTE (sides 1 and 2) and Relayer for me (sides 3 and 4) with characteristics of both.
 
I feel The Lamb is perhaps more controversial. Again, I love that album but it actually required more effort for me than TFTO did! There's such a large amount of music on there and it's so dense sonically (some people actively dislike the production too) that I could see why that divides people. But it's high up on my personal favourite list of Genesis albums-in my top 5.
 
But the double album I'd nominate as being one I personally feel is too long is The Flower Kings' 'Unfold The Future' as I was saying on another thread. There's so much material that does nothing for me whatsoever- I could only pull an album's worth of material I like from the 2 discs. I've had that album for a year or more now and if I'd have not bought 'Paradox Hotel' on the off chance (and to claim on a money off voucher in all honesty- needed a few pounds more to use it), I'd probably not have given their other stuff an airing based on UTF. But I'm glad I did as I like most of their other albums. Yet I still don't get that one myself. But then it's their 'recommended' album here, lots of fans swear by it and that's exactly what I mean by it being subjective.
And I'll continue to give UTF a listen in case it suddenly 'clicks'.
 
There are some non double albums that I find to be too long, though. A Passion Play I find a real chore as there are no hooks to my ears, it seems to be an attempt to 'better' TAAB, when in my mind it clearly doesn't- the 'Hare That Lost Its Spectacles' bit makes me cringe with embarassment. And then I get to 'Olias Of Sunhillow', a shrill sounding affair with little variety for me as it all starts to sound similar after a while, imho, and all a bit one dimensional to my ears. It's technically impressive in that Anderson did all of it himself, but I find it a dirge, quite honestly.
 
But again, some swear by these two albums and love them.
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