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Topic ClosedWhy Ange stands high above France's Prog scene

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why Ange stands high above France's Prog scene
    Posted: February 03 2007 at 01:11
Whiie Italy has its extensive symphonic scene from the early 70s, germany with the Krautrock genre offering a modicum of talented groups in that genre; it seemd that France tended to toss up comparatively few top tier or even second tier Prog groups as compared to other Europeen countries. Ange (IMO)as I've stated in this site previously, are equal to Genesis or Gentle Giant amonst albums in my collection. But after them the offerings quickly become competent, but not exactly earth shattering.
So, what's your take on this ? as a quick note, I find that France produces many singer-songwriter/song interpreters, thereby diminishing the number of artists that would
 pursue a career in the prog field ...
Could it be the "chansonniers" tradition, the expressive pop scene (Edith Piaf, a goddess among women when ti comes to singing) OR simply the choices made by groupos as they developed their sound ,,,
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2007 at 01:33
According to many sites there's a sub-genre called French Theatric Symphonic, with high influence of Genesis but with a clear French personality, bands like Ange, Atoll and Mona Lisa represent this style and all are in the same level.
 
Iván
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2007 at 04:23
Ange rules. Also, very beautiful lyrics. Unique keyboard sound (like a organ filtered through a hairdryer). I have all albums 72-80 and never grow tired to listen. Also saw them live a couple of years ago (C. Descamps and the young ones) and the man is still great.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2007 at 04:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2007 at 05:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2007 at 11:45

French 70s and early 80sprog scene is not bad at all!And Ange is not the only worthy band at all!

Take a look at Rocktopus links..
Ars longa , vita brevis
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2007 at 11:58
Magma? Dun? Eskaton? Plenty of good French bands!
Havent heard of Ange, though they sound interesting Ill be sure to check them out!


Edited by Minimalist777 - February 03 2007 at 11:59
WWOSD?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2007 at 12:24
Originally posted by Rocktopus

You have absolutely no idea on what you're talking about:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21284

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29193


http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33648


You're completely right, of course. I am but a wiggly worm, sir, a wiggly worm ... All the bands mentioned in the above posts are all & always included amongst the Masters of Prog, you know Genesis, Gentle Giant, King Crimson, PFM, Le Orme, Pink Floyd, Kraftwerk, Jethro Tull, Strawbs.
Now, if I reconsider my initial proposition, I wonder if you read it correctly.  To simplify things for you, here is an example - the UK has Genesis, Gentle Giant, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, Yes, all that are generally considered as being Prog Gods, i.e. top tier progressive rock acts. Italy has PFM, Le Orme, Banco (to a point), and this site even has decreed Italian symphonic prog as a "sub-genre". France, on the other hand, for all of its cultural heft, has produced Ange, & yes, Magma. But the quality or standing if you will, drops precipitously after these two. Atoll is a good group, but they are second tier. Arachnoid were interesting, but their "oeuvre" is not extensive. There are many talented french groups which you have mentioned, but in my readings within this site, most times they are mentioned or referred to only in context of other french groups. The scandinavian countries have an interesting prog scene, but outside of 2 or 3 groups, none have set the prog world on fire (I am a big fan of Anglagard). So to terminate this interminable treatise on what I mean by "top tier", I would like to add one last thing. I sometimes find that the responses in some threads gives the impression that the "responders" have not exactly read the question or proposition, & use it as a flimsy reason to go off on their own tangent or "pet" peeve. I bow to your (un)important title, which as i contribute more to this site, seems to mean one has written more than others. So, if you can argue that Carpe Diem are the equal of Gentle Giant, or Clearlight clearly surpass Pink FLoyd, or even that Pulsar deserve more adulation than PFM, then please make your case. And before you diss a fellow contributor (I supposedly have no idea what I am talking about), allow your brain cells time to actually understand the question. LOL
p.s. to quote our national hero Acadieman - La dignite ne se trouve pas dans la possession d'honneur, mais dans la conscience qu'on le deserve (Aristotle - sort of)


Edited by pantacruelgruel - February 03 2007 at 12:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2007 at 12:28
Ouch, that didn't hurt...
Could you guys be friendly and quiet? I'm trying to study French prog here, something I know little about, besides Magma and the roots of Gong...  LOL



Edited by Angelo - February 03 2007 at 12:29
Even prog is rooted in the blues, at some point...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2007 at 12:36
Sorry, I just felt talked down to by someone who seemingly wasn't having its' best day ...or maybe he just needs a Camaro ... Wink
P.S. I see BJH on your lastfm list type thing. Are they really a poor man's Moody Blues for lack of a better comparison ? I've not been able to get into them when listening to the samples & mp3s available.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2007 at 17:21
Originally posted by pantacruelgruel

Originally posted by Rocktopus

You have absolutely no idea on what you're talking about:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21284

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29193


http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33648


You're completely right, of course. I am but a wiggly worm, sir, a wiggly worm ... All the bands mentioned in the above posts are all & always included amongst the Masters of Prog, you know Genesis, Gentle Giant, King Crimson, PFM, Le Orme, Pink Floyd, Kraftwerk, Jethro Tull, Strawbs.
Now, if I reconsider my initial proposition, I wonder if you read it correctly.  To simplify things for you, here is an example - the UK has Genesis, Gentle Giant, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, Yes, all that are generally considered as being Prog Gods, i.e. top tier progressive rock acts. Italy has PFM, Le Orme, Banco (to a point), and this site even has decreed Italian symphonic prog as a "sub-genre". France, on the other hand, for all of its cultural heft, has produced Ange, & yes, Magma. But the quality or standing if you will, drops precipitously after these two. Atoll is a good group, but they are second tier. Arachnoid were interesting, but their "oeuvre" is not extensive. There are many talented french groups which you have mentioned, but in my readings within this site, most times they are mentioned or referred to only in context of other french groups. The scandinavian countries have an interesting prog scene, but outside of 2 or 3 groups, none have set the prog world on fire (I am a big fan of Anglagard). So to terminate this interminable treatise on what I mean by "top tier", I would like to add one last thing. I sometimes find that the responses in some threads gives the impression that the "responders" have not exactly read the question or proposition, & use it as a flimsy reason to go off on their own tangent or "pet" peeve. I bow to your (un)important title, which as i contribute more to this site, seems to mean one has written more than others. So, if you can argue that Carpe Diem are the equal of Gentle Giant, or Clearlight clearly surpass Pink FLoyd, or even that Pulsar deserve more adulation than PFM, then please make your case. And before you diss a fellow contributor (I supposedly have no idea what I am talking about), allow your brain cells time to actually understand the question. LOL
p.s. to quote our national hero Acadieman - La dignite ne se trouve pas dans la possession d'honneur, mais dans la conscience qu'on le deserve (Aristotle - sort of)



I haven't heard Carpe Diem, don't like Pulsar or Atoll, and of course the british bands have an advantige of simply being from britain.

Can't see kraut or italian symphonic being any more important subgenre than in the 70's, the 100% french genre,  Zeuhl. And isn't it obvious that if Gentle Giant were french they would be just as good, but more marginal? Nobody would care about The Strawbs if they were anything but british. This has nothing to do with standing high above anything.

I love most of the bands you mention, but I know hundreds of french prog-albums better than anything Strawbs ever released. (I've got nothing against Strawbs either. Just a little boring sometimes, that's all)
 
Except for the great Magma, Ange, Clearlight and Archanoid you might not know about;

The french Gods and the greats: Archaiä/Art Zoyd/Lard Free/Heldon/Vortex/Eider Stellaire/Eskaton/Igor Wakhevitch/Moving Gelatine Plates//Shylock/Dün/Flamen Dialis/Horde/Cheval Fou/Etron Fou Leboublan/ Horrific Child/Artcane/Clivage/Ma Banlieue Flasque/Mosaic/Laurent Thibault/Komintern/Maajun/Jean Cohen Solal/Horde/Jean-Claude Vannier/Patrick Vian/Weidorje/Michel Magne/Spacecraft/Triode/Laurence Vanay(Jacqueline Thibault)/Jean Louise Bucchi/ Kha -Ym/Roland Bocquet/Catherine Ribeiro + Annes, Brigitte Fontaine/Rahmann/Manu Lannuel/Potemkine/Chico Magnetic Band/Pataphonie/Fille Qui Mousse/Visitors/Ame Son/Zao/Alain Markusfeld/Hellebore/Shub Niggurath/Catharsis.. mm.

Check some of these out first, if you're not only talking about popularity and sales figures. I'm not misunderstanding anything. I and several others here, know a lot more about the fantastic french progressive scene than you do. 

Ask some of  the kind and knowledgable people working on this site.  Avestin or Black Velvet. They'll probably guide you.

Got my senior-progcitizen title at my 100th post, and I'm damned proud of it.

To simplify things for you: Hey! Sometimes people (=you) just don't have a clue. And thats ok.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2007 at 17:26
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

According to many sites there's a sub-genre called French Theatric Symphonic, with high influence of Genesis but with a clear French personality, bands like Ange, Atoll and Mona Lisa represent this style and all are in the same level.
 
Iván
 



great idea since RPI was such a big hit LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2007 at 17:30
Originally posted by Minimalist777

Havent heard of Ange, though they sound interesting Ill be sure to check them out!


great stuff.. I got into them through Assaf
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2007 at 19:09

what about fusion in France? I thought there were a lot of good french fusion bands.Gong was born in france although led by an Aussie.

Perhaps its a cultural thing, we just prefer the english speaking bands, its in our mind cultural mindset. Most pop culture icons are either british or american. Perhaps we need to understand the french mindset a bit more  I do think Zeuhl prog is pretty good, but takes a while to understand.
Anyway Rocktopus I think Gentle Giant are second tier, alright but certainly not prog gods, I think that they followed in the footsteps of Yes and Jethro Tull a bit too much. I think a lot of the British Symphonic groups get too much attention on this sight and, at times, some are a little overrated.


Edited by Cheesecakemouse - February 03 2007 at 19:14



  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2007 at 19:14
Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse



Anyway Rocktopus I think Gentle Giant are second tier, alright but certainly not prog gods. I think a lot of the British Symphonic groups get too much attention on this sight and, at times, some are a little overrated.


Doesn't really matter what you personally think of GG, but aren't you basically writing what I just did, using other words?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2007 at 19:26
Originally posted by Rocktopus

Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse



Anyway Rocktopus I think Gentle Giant are second tier, alright but certainly not prog gods. I think a lot of the British Symphonic groups get too much attention on this sight and, at times, some are a little overrated.


Doesn't really matter what you personally think of GG, but aren't you basically writing what I just did, using other words?
 
I was just using GG as an example to illustrate my point about how brits get all the attention. I I do think that in the top hundred on this website for example has many second tier prog bands that shouldn't be there while, many other fine Kraut rock, New Musics ans Avant garde bands are ignored, each time a second tier prog band like Camel or GG get another five star rating I feel like throwing up. What about Can, Neu!, Univers Zero, Magma? etc. So many great bands ignored because not many people go beyond the British Symphonic and Art rock genres.
Does this irrate you Rocktopus ? According to your info your norwegion there must be at least a dozen decent scandinavian prog bands around that no ones heard of because they don't speak english.



  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2007 at 19:41
To quote myself from a few posts further up:

...and of course the british bands have the advantige of simply being from britain

....Nobody would care about The Strawbs if they were anything but british.

And because I dig GG I formulated it like this: And isn't it obvious that if Gentle Giant were french they would be just as good, but more marginal?

Did you not just read all this Cheesekcakemouse?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2007 at 21:22
Originally posted by micky

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

According to many sites there's a sub-genre called French Theatric Symphonic, with high influence of Genesis but with a clear French personality, bands like Ange, Atoll and Mona Lisa represent this style and all are in the same level.
 
Iván
 



great idea since RPI was such a big hit LOL
 
Don't worry Micky, I know this is overqualifying, I only mentioned them as a reference.
 
French Theatric Symphonic is very related to Genesis, they loved the theatrics but the vocals have that Chansonier style bvery unique, it's just Symphonic with a special flavour.
 
Iván
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2007 at 07:21
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

Originally posted by micky

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

According to many sites there's a sub-genre called French Theatric Symphonic, with high influence of Genesis but with a clear French personality, bands like Ange, Atoll and Mona Lisa represent this style and all are in the same level.
 
Iván
 



great idea since RPI was such a big hit LOL
 
Don't worry Micky, I know this is overqualifying, I only mentioned them as a reference.
 
French Theatric Symphonic is very related to Genesis, they loved the theatrics but the vocals have that Chansonier style bvery unique, it's just Symphonic with a special flavour.
 
Iván
 


hahahha.. to quote Tony R:



No sh*t Sherlock!!! LOL


a joke Ivan... just a joke LOLLOL


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2007 at 07:31
oh yeah... is there any  Genesis connection in the French theatrical vein?... Ange's first which has that and more came in in 72 when Genesis was still a 2nd or 3rd division prog band  outside of bars in England, and of course Italy LOL .  Looked through Ange's liner notes and didn't see one reference to Genesis. Ange if I recall correctly had been around since the late 60's

Edited by micky - February 04 2007 at 07:33
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