Dissection of animals

i'd like to say that animal dissection for science and medical purposes is a necessary evil.

i agree that being a medical student doesn't mean that you have to do animal dissection, unless you would become a surgeon, or other position that really needs you to have such knowledges.

sometimes we have to sacrifice something in order to gain other thing(s), that's just the way of the world. however, these sacrifices shouldn't be misused, for example, by slaughtering lots and lots of animals when such a thing isn't really a necessary thing to do. The key to this issue, i think is not to overdone it.

^^^That's more like it.

I'm about start a cat dissection in my Bio II class in my high school.  I know not all the students in the class will grow up to be vets or doctors, but I also know that I and a handful of others took the class because we enjoy learning about science.  To make the statement that we're all just a bunch of clumsy teenagers with no scientific motives being taught by a hack teacher is just ignorant. 

I voted no.

In Medical schools they don't kill people for research. They use the cadavers of people who have already died. Why can't they do the same with animals?

As far as the high schools are concerned, it is totally ridiculous. We had to do fetal pigs when I was a sophomore. I can't think of one valuable thing that was actually learned by that. All I remember is the horrific smell of the formaldehyde.

I voted no. I never looked into myself, but I can assure you, I have a very good image of what my insides look like. I don't have a problem guessing if it hurts in my liver or my lungs or whatever inside there. we never open frogs, or guinea pigs, or cats for that matter in Finland, and I don't see a reason to start. You say people need to cut an animal to get interested. Well, in that case they should make people build houses and boats to get them interested in that, they should make everyone design a nuclear reactor and build one so they'd find their interest in it and become professionals in the future.

The whole thought is absurd. Are we really lacking vetenarians? No. How many of them cut a frog in school? None. And please note, that even though *surgeons* do explore the wonders of a dead body, a doctor is taught by another, whereas a vet could be taught by others, and they do often follow cases, where an other doctor or a vet proceeds with a treatment to a patient na d they learn.

Personally I would never cut a frog, should we come to that. We once cut fish in our class. Those were some our teacher had caught the other day, and brought them to school. We opened them, looked at them, removed the guts, and he took them home and made dinner. So instead of opening them himself he brought them to us to let us learn something, but he didn't grow them for the purpose. And besides I've cut a fish hundreds of times, I need to know where everything is to not spoil the food part. Though this I learned because I was told how it happened, not by killing 12 fish wrongly.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Ivan: We can easily teach them both where Bolivia is and what the inside of a frog looks like. They're two different classes. So you don't have to worry about one interfering with the other.

1. Less than 20% knows or cares where is Bolivia.
2. 5% of USA citizens are absolutely illiterate
3. Only 34% of the graduates of high school have the minimum (Not excelent, not good, not average) basic reading skills. This means 66% of USA High School graduates have severe limitations,
   • 13 percent of America's 17-year-olds are "functionally illiterate."
   • 34% have severe limitations that will make them almost unable to find a job
   • 19% of the students will need remedies, but 33% of the ones who reach college will also need remedies, this is crazy, they reach College but have to read John Jean and Judy
4. 100% of USA students have opened a frog, a hamster and now a cat, probably stolen from a family and approximately only 1350 students graduate as Doctors in Veterinary every year in all USA while .1'679,000 high school kids graduate anually, less than 1 per 1,000 will maybe require this experience, and remember, surely less because kids kill animals during several grades.

A surgeon may need to open an animal, a Vet surely needs it, but it's stupid, unnecessary or criminal to let a unskilled student massacre a living being.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 27 2007 at 00:26

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Ivan: We can easily teach them both where Bolivia is and what the inside of a frog looks like. They're two different classes. So you don't have to worry about one interfering with the other.   The problem is that: Less than 20% knows or cares where is Bolivia. 5% of USA citizens are absolutely illiterate Only 34% of the graduates of high school have the minimum (Not excelent, not good, not average) basic reading skills. This means 66% of USA High School graduates have severe limitations, 13 percent of America's 17-year-olds are "functionally illiterate." 34% have severe limitations that will make them almost unable to find a job 19% of the students will need remedies, but 33% of the ones who reach college will also need remedies, this is crazy, they reach College but have to read John Jean and Judy 100% of USA students have opened a frog, a hamster and now a cat, probably stolen from a family and approximately only 1350 students graduate as Doctors in Veterinary every year in all USA while .1'679,000 high school kids graduate anually, less than 1 per 1,000 will maybe require this experience, and remember, surely less because kids kill animals during several grades. A surgeon may need to open an animal, a Vet surely needs it, but it's stupid, unnecessary or criminal to let a unskilled student massacre a living being. I believe the priorities are in a wrong place.   Now about animal rights, only a person without any sensibility can say animals don't have rights except if economically valuablem, 100 years people from different races didn't had rights probably in 50 years people will see us as insensitive beasts for killing animals.   Iván

There's a big difference between animals and people. No amount of time will change that. Saying 100 years ago, blacks didn't have the same rights as whites is completely different. There lies a distinction in that blacks and whites are not different. However, frogs and humans are very different. Are you a vegetarian Ivan?

Where did you get your numbers? The US literacy rate  99% from the CIA world factbook (Could have swore it was 99.7% though). 100% of US students have not dissected an animal, I can speak from personal experience. 4 people in my high school's bio class chose not to dissect. Also, what does caring where Bolivia is have to do with anything? I would love to see that poll. I personally don't care where Bolivia is (although I know) and I think a rudimentary knowledge of anatomy is far more important than knowing where Bolivia is. Hands on experience with an important scientific foundation vs. knowing where to put an inconsequential country with an GDP of 8 billion on a map. I think the dissection wins.

If we give animals rights, I see no reason to not ban soup and disinfectants. They're killing helpless creatures. Humans are such bullies.

And why did this thread turn into a let's bash how stupid US citizens are thread?


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - February 27 2007 at 00:57

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: There's a big difference between animals and people. No amount of time will change that. Saying 100 years ago, blacks didn't have the same rights as whites is completely different. There lies a distinction in that blacks and whites are not different. However, frogs and humans are very different. Are you a vegetarian Ivan?   In first place, I'm not comparing humans with animals, I'm just pointing that human values evolve with time, there are ONG's and Governments (Including USA) investing billions in preserving species,m do you want Frogs to be almost exttinnct and flies invading your homes (Frogs eat flies, just in case you didn't knew) to invest millions in preserving the ecological chain? There's a very large difference between not wanting frogs to go extinct, and giving them rights. Dissections won't decimate the frog population, we could raise all the frogs we use in dissections.   BTW; The vegetarian issue is absolutely ridiculous, I'm talking about KILLING WITHOUT PURPOSE, feeding is a valid purpose, the consequences of creating a 100% vegetarian society would be catastrophic as one of the Baldies pointed very clearly on another thread. There's is a purpose though. THey're a valuable learning tool, and I know that you know the importance of education having taken such extensive schooling yourself. Equality 7-2521 wrote: Where did you get your numbers? The US literacy rate  99% from the CIA world factbook (Could have swore it was 99.7% though). 100% of US students have not dissected an animal, I can speak from personal experience. 4 people in my high school's bio class chose not to dissect. Also, what does caring where Bolivia is have to do with anything? I would love to see that poll. I personally don't care where Bolivia is (although I know) and I think a rudimentary knowledge of anatomy is far more important than knowing where Bolivia is. Hands on experience with an important scientific foundation vs. knowing where to put an inconsequential country with an GDP of 8 billion on a map. I think the dissection wins.   Seems you have troubles if you believe CIA, they were the ones who talked about the Weapoms of Massive Destruction.   Yes I trust the second best intelligence agency in the world. The whole world was fooled on the WMDs. That doesn't rule CIA statistical data wrong. My numbers as usual are supported   The Illiterate Digest has always saltued Illiteracy and now has compiled a list of the most illiterate cities in the United States. We're doing much better than our European brethren, since 23 million American adults are functionally illiterate and 13% of all American 17-years-olds are functionally illiterate. http://www.ahalenia.com/id/id11/illiterati.html [/quote]   Seems I stayed short,.   Not only 13% of the 17 years old kids are functionally illiterate but also 7.63% of the total USA popuilation is also functionally illiterate, this means THEY CAN'T WRITE OR READ.   If you doubt of just one source:   Neglecting students’ literacy has serious economic consequences for individuals and states. Today, almost 40 percent of high school graduates lack the reading and writing skills that employers seek, and almost a third of high school graduates who enroll in college require remediation. Deficits in basic skills cost the nation’s businesses, universities, and under-prepared high school graduates as much as $16 billion annually in lost productivity and remedial costs.”6   Only 31 percent of eighth graders and 34 percent of twelfth graders meet the National Assessment of Educational Progress standard of reading “proficiency” for their grade level. (National Assessment of Educational Progress, 2002) http://www.carnegie.org/literacy/why.html   Again I stayed short:   1.- Almost 40 percent of high school graduates lack the reading and writing skills that employers seek, (They will know how to open a frog but won't be able to get a job)   2.- Almost a third of high school graduates who enroll in college require remediation. (The exact 33.33% I mentioned previously reached university but have to take basic reading....How did they reached College withoiut being proficiebt in reading?.....God knows)   3.- Only 31 percent of eighth graders and 34 percent of twelfth graders meet the National Assessment of Educational Progress standard of reading “proficiency" (Again, I stayed short, less than 1/3 of USA students reach the average skills required for their age)   If still you don't trust in that data, read this:   National Association of State Boards of Education According to the NGA report, Reading to Achieve: A Governor’s Guide to Adolescent Literacy, ”today, almost 40 percent of high school graduates lack the reading and writing skills that employers seek, and almost a third of high school graduates who enroll in college require remediation. Deficits in basic skills cost the nation’s businesses, universities, and underprepared high school graduates as much as $16 billion annually in lost productivity and remedial costs." The report suggests governors pursue five strategies to improve adolescent literacy achievement: http://www.nacctep.org/PolicyBriefs/V2_2005/vol2i9/index.htm   You want more data?   The second report, Reading at Risk: The State Response to the Crisis in Adolescent Literacy, suggests that that approximately 70 percent of adolescents struggle to read. http://www.nacctep.org/PolicyBriefs/V2_2005/vol2i9/index.htm   7 out of each 10 adolescents have problems reading...Scary?   But according to other sources is even scarier:   Only one-third of high school students take a high school curriculum that prepares them ... almost 50% of those that do enroll in college need remediation; ... www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ovae/pafblueprint.doc   5 out of 10 students who reach Coillege require remediation...woow....butthey know hoiw to skin  a cat.   You want even more:   [quote]Of those who enter high school, only about 70 percent will graduate--—one of the lowest rates among industrialized nations (Greene & Winters, 2006). As important, however, is the fact that, of those who do receive a diploma, only half are academically prepared for postsecondary education (Greene & Winters, 2005).   Wonderful only 7 out of 10 students will graduate from High School and only 3.5 are ready for Superior Education, Do you still believe in CIA factbook?   I'm sure you don't care where Bolivia is, except if you have to bomb it.  But probably you should know where one of the countries that provide USA with more cooper and silver is located, but of course we're only Bananna Republic, so Who cares?   Wonderful arrogance as an excuse for ignorance. Still not a reason the average Joe should know where it is over anatomy in my opinion.   Last but not least, your 4 fellow students who probably got a big red F are not statistically significant, even if they refused, the subject is mandatory, so it's correct to say that all students except those with moral principles who probably failled, have dissected some animal with no purpose. Only one of those sources speaks of the actually literacy rate. I'm not doubting your numbers on the poor english abilities of people. But I trust the CIA over some special interest group. Again, the only number I doubted was the actual literacy rate. And the Bolivia numbers. Also, again these two subjects are seperate so there's room for improvement in english with the dissection. They won't impede on each other territory on a education possibilities curve. Equality 7-2521 wrote: If we give animals rights, I see no reason to not ban soup and disinfectants. They're killing helpless creatures. Humans are such bullies.   Well, will answer this even when I believe it should be logic. (BTW I guess you're talking about soap, because soup doesn't kill germs in your body unless you want to boil yourself in a kettle with chicken, potatoes and vegetables ). :) Damn that soup haha. Yes soap.   The germs don't have central nervous system so there's no pain, no suffering, no intelligence, but that's secondary.....Hey, I didn't required of disecting germs to learn that, a book was enough, but hey, I didn't required remediation.   BTW II: Soup is a great idea for frogs,. they say they taste like chicken and at least then we will have a purpose killing them.   Germs are plagues dangerous for human life, if you have to choose between ANY animal and a human being you have always to choose the human being, that's kindergarten logic, it's more evident in the case of a plague or a germ.   If you have to kill locusts to save the harvest, you will have to do it, because human life is first, but it's required a litlle bit of logic to get it. I agree, I was just saying that if frogs get rights when not hurting humans, why not give germs the same rights. The arguement was purposefully ridiculous. Equality 7-2521 wrote: And why did this thread turn into a let's bash how stupid US citizens are thread?   I clearly said: If this happens in USA, I can't imagine what happens in the third world (From which I'm part), but seems you didn't read my previous posts because I'm sure you don't need remediation. I appologize Ivan, I missed that in your last post, but I did read it. I tend to skim closing as theyre usually just wrap ups or unrelated to posts, I guessed I missed it in skimming.   Iván