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progismylife View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2007 at 14:26
Originally posted by Uroboros Uroboros wrote:

Originally posted by progismylife progismylife wrote:

So you are basically saying that The Doors are a bad band because Ray Manzarek made sure Jim was in his band because of Jim's poetry and thats wh THe Doors started - becasue of Jim's poetry. Jim quoted part of a poem he wrote (which later became Moonlight Drive I think) and Ray was amazed. And have you read his lyrics? Those are great poetry. And he kept on bringing up shamans and native Americans and stuff because events he had a traumatic event in his childhood (He saw a car crash that involved a truck with a bunch of Native Americans, who that died - "Indians scattered on dawn's highway bleeding") And the lizards have to do with the few acid trips he had (I think - its what is put in the few biographies I've read)
 
Yes, Ray Manzarek's literary taste is most definitely a warranty for great poetry. Stern%20Smile
Of course I know the lyrics, I'm not talking about things I'm not familiar with. There is the occasional nice metaphor, of course (after all, the guy was trying), but there is nothing truly personal in there, he didn't have a poetic voice of his own. And, besides that, writing symbolism in the 1960's wasn't exactly keeping in time with the progress of literature.
Actually, you know, if you want to think he wrote great stuff, go ahead - who am I to try to make you think differently? Smile


So what (to go slightly off topic here) is considered good poetry if Jim Morrison isn't considered a poet (in your point of view)?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2007 at 14:51
Originally posted by progismylife progismylife wrote:

Originally posted by Uroboros Uroboros wrote:

Originally posted by progismylife progismylife wrote:

So you are basically saying that The Doors are a bad band because Ray Manzarek made sure Jim was in his band because of Jim's poetry and thats wh THe Doors started - becasue of Jim's poetry. Jim quoted part of a poem he wrote (which later became Moonlight Drive I think) and Ray was amazed. And have you read his lyrics? Those are great poetry. And he kept on bringing up shamans and native Americans and stuff because events he had a traumatic event in his childhood (He saw a car crash that involved a truck with a bunch of Native Americans, who that died - "Indians scattered on dawn's highway bleeding") And the lizards have to do with the few acid trips he had (I think - its what is put in the few biographies I've read)
 
Yes, Ray Manzarek's literary taste is most definitely a warranty for great poetry. Stern%20Smile
Of course I know the lyrics, I'm not talking about things I'm not familiar with. There is the occasional nice metaphor, of course (after all, the guy was trying), but there is nothing truly personal in there, he didn't have a poetic voice of his own. And, besides that, writing symbolism in the 1960's wasn't exactly keeping in time with the progress of literature.
Actually, you know, if you want to think he wrote great stuff, go ahead - who am I to try to make you think differently? Smile


So what (to go slightly off topic here) is considered good poetry if Jim Morrison isn't considered a poet (in your point of view)?
 
Haha, I don't know, about ten thousand other things probably. From the old guys, for instance Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Blake, just to name those who probably influenced Morrison and his generation to a various extents. Or Walt Whitman, I don't know... Then T.S. Eliott in the first half of the past century, Dylan Thomas of course - if I were to try and follow some kind of logical path... or maybe not so logical. And then there was Ginsberg, whom I'm not familiar with, but knowing he was more or less the mentor of the so-called "beat" generation, I would guess he was more than his disciples managed to be.
There were many individual voices following valid literary currents in the twentieth century - modernism, surrealism (from which sprang all kinds of strange experiments with form and language like dadaism), later various deconstruction techniques began to be employed, and literature was transformed heavily with the arrival of postmodernism. In a picture of the twentieth century, Morrison didn't create poetry that was historically valid (yes, he was representative of his time and his generation's ideology to a certain extent, but not relevant to the history of literature). His language was not his own and was not up to par with his contemporaries.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2007 at 15:08
Originally posted by Uroboros Uroboros wrote:

 
Haha, I don't know, about ten thousand other things probably. From the old guys, for instance Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Blake, just to name those who probably influenced Morrison and his generation to a various extents. Or Walt Whitman, I don't know... Then T.S. Eliott in the first half of the past century, Dylan Thomas of course - if I were to try and follow some kind of logical path... or maybe not so logical. And then there was Ginsberg, whom I'm not familiar with, but knowing he was more or less the mentor of the so-called "beat" generation, I would guess he was more than his disciples managed to be.
There were many individual voices following valid literary currents in the twentieth century - modernism, surrealism (from which sprang all kinds of strange experiments with form and language like dadaism), later various deconstruction techniques began to be employed, and literature was transformed heavily with the arrival of postmodernism. In a picture of the twentieth century, Morrison didn't create poetry that was historically valid (yes, he was representative of his time and his generation's ideology to a certain extent, but not relevant to the history of literature). His language was not his own and was not up to par with his contemporaries.
I am inclined to agree.
 
Morrison was a ROCK poet, very much "of his time" and a voice for his generation. As with early Yes lyrics, his words were often abstract, and evocative to his "turned-on" contemporary audience, but don't bear too much scrutiny simply as timeless poetry.
 
If future generations ever study Jim's lyrics, I think it will be in history or political science (perhaps psychology) classes, not English literature or poetry classes.
 
I like the lyrics, but I see them for what they are: cool 60s-70s rock lyrics, from a very original, charismatic guy.
 
The words need the music, and the late 60s psychedelic Haight-Ashbury setting, for maximum impact. As with Anderson's Yes lyrics, to view them in isolation, purely as "poetry," is to miss the point and do them a disservice.


Edited by Peter Rideout - March 21 2007 at 15:11
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2007 at 15:12
Originally posted by Uroboros Uroboros wrote:

Originally posted by progismylife progismylife wrote:

Originally posted by Uroboros Uroboros wrote:

Originally posted by progismylife progismylife wrote:

So you are basically saying that The Doors are a bad band because Ray Manzarek made sure Jim was in his band because of Jim's poetry and thats wh THe Doors started - becasue of Jim's poetry. Jim quoted part of a poem he wrote (which later became Moonlight Drive I think) and Ray was amazed. And have you read his lyrics? Those are great poetry. And he kept on bringing up shamans and native Americans and stuff because events he had a traumatic event in his childhood (He saw a car crash that involved a truck with a bunch of Native Americans, who that died - "Indians scattered on dawn's highway bleeding") And the lizards have to do with the few acid trips he had (I think - its what is put in the few biographies I've read)
 
Yes, Ray Manzarek's literary taste is most definitely a warranty for great poetry. Stern%20Smile
Of course I know the lyrics, I'm not talking about things I'm not familiar with. There is the occasional nice metaphor, of course (after all, the guy was trying), but there is nothing truly personal in there, he didn't have a poetic voice of his own. And, besides that, writing symbolism in the 1960's wasn't exactly keeping in time with the progress of literature.
Actually, you know, if you want to think he wrote great stuff, go ahead - who am I to try to make you think differently? Smile


So what (to go slightly off topic here) is considered good poetry if Jim Morrison isn't considered a poet (in your point of view)?
 
Haha, I don't know, about ten thousand other things probably. From the old guys, for instance Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Blake, just to name those who probably influenced Morrison and his generation to a various extents. Or Walt Whitman, I don't know... Then T.S. Eliott in the first half of the past century, Dylan Thomas of course - if I were to try and follow some kind of logical path... or maybe not so logical. And then there was Ginsberg, whom I'm not familiar with, but knowing he was more or less the mentor of the so-called "beat" generation, I would guess he was more than his disciples managed to be.
There were many individual voices following valid literary currents in the twentieth century - modernism, surrealism (from which sprang all kinds of strange experiments with form and language like dadaism), later various deconstruction techniques began to be employed, and literature was transformed heavily with the arrival of postmodernism. In a picture of the twentieth century, Morrison didn't create poetry that was historically valid (yes, he was representative of his time and his generation's ideology to a certain extent, but not relevant to the history of literature). His language was not his own and was not up to par with his contemporaries.


Now that I see your perspective I agree with you. A lot in fact. Its all about context and perspective.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2007 at 15:14
Originally posted by Peter Rideout Peter Rideout wrote:

 
If future generations ever study Jim's lyrics, I think it will be in history or political science (perhaps psychology) classes, not English literature or poetry classes.
 

I was actually encouraged to read Jim Morrison's lyrics and to do a project on them for the poetry part of my English course (of course it was from a bad English teacher who got fired that  year). I decided to do something more worthwhile and chose Lewis Carroll, Jabborwocky being one of my favorite poems.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2007 at 20:46
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Love this LA Woman album!! Easily their best!! Their proggiest if you ask me.
 
Wasp is outstanding too.
 
 
Originally posted by BroSpence BroSpence wrote:

LA Woman is a fine album.  I had to listen to it about 3 times before I really started to catch on to it. 
 
I don't know why hate Soft Parade. That's a good one too.  Personally, I think the first album is a bit boring.

 
Soft Parade is unfortunately overloaded by strings and horns section. But the title track is pure dynamite. One of my favorite.
 
The debutr album is a bit over-rated, but still quite fine and Strange Days is good too.


See I like the strings and horns. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2007 at 21:31
Originally posted by Peter Rideout Peter Rideout wrote:

Ermm Hmmmm... I wonder if the whole "overrated" thing (at least in regard to older albums, like LA Woman) often breaks down along generational lines.
 
For those of us "of a certain age," we "were there" to experience the impact some of these ground-breaking, "important" albums and artists (ITCOTCK, SEBTP, Foxtrot, Brain Salad Surgery, Sgt. Pepper's, etc.) made at the time, and we may thus often treat the albums with a certain nostalgic reverence. (We rate with a view to the album's place in rock/prog history, and our own lengthy, happy, youthful history with it.)
 
With NO disrespect intended, I often find myself assuming, when I read some post saying how this or that widely-loved classic is "overrated"  (still hate that word because of what it implies about the album's fans), that the writer must be much younger than I, and just wasn't there to feel what we did when the music was fresh and new, and really stood out from the prevailing norm. (Thus, I tend to take such disparaging, counter to the majority statements with a HUGE "grain of salt.")
 
I also think,  when classic albums inevitably garner a lot of gushing praise, that new listeners may approach them with the unrealistic expectation of being "blown away" (you'll see that a lot in their subsequent reviews: "from all of the previous reviews, I was expecting to be blown away, but I wasn't), or of having some sort of revelatory, life-altering, quasi-religious experience.LOL
 
What do others think? Is there a generational, "you had to be there" kind of phenomenon at work in these cases? we see it time and again: 40-something reviewer gives top rating, teen reviewer knocks it down because 'it didn't blow me away."
 
Or is it just the innate cynicism of youth? Yes, I was a teen, and I have a teenage daughter, so I have some experience with the "everything sucks, especially what you like, Pops) mindset. (I'm not saying this is necessarily a factor here.)
 
Waddaya say?Ermm
 
(Just checked -- according to his profile, our Mr. Mouse is a youthful 26. He was born well after the Doors' groovy, far-out heyday.)
 
 
Age is irrelevant to this argument, I know many people of the 60s and 70s generation that consider the Doors overrated partially thanks to Oliver Stones movies, most people in my aga group and younger think the Doors are fantastic, but compare LA Woman to everything else happening in 1971 and it is quite a poor album compare it to the Yes album or Meddle by Pink Floyd, LA Woman is light years behind these albums. As for my generation and younger have you noticed they arn't cynical about music otherwise they would not buy all the slop that is marketed today.



  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2007 at 22:48
In time, I've come to find L.A. Woman to be my fave among the Doors' albums because it sounded like their most relaxed, as if they knew they were going to take a "break" once they were done with this one. It also seems to encompass all their styles through their career. Then to top it, it has 3 of their classic "radio" hits - Love Her Madly, L.A. Woman, & Riders on the Storm. True, the music wasn't as "far out" or "progressive" as some that was put out that year. But I don't know that such "competitions" are what musicians should or would worry about, whether in 1971 or any year. And what's more, there is one track that you could always blow away your typical non-Doors' fan's mind with - you wait 'til they've had a few brews, then drop the needle (sorry, anachronistic remarkEmbarrassed), I mean cue the CD to "Been Down So Long" & scream the first few lines of the lyric along with J M. Then ask them if they actually know what sort of music the Doors played. LOL
This is the end. of the post. or maybe not ...
P.S. Morrison was one of "rock''s more famous lyricist. Sometimes overrated, sometimes too easily dismissed for his so-called artistic & poetic pretentions. But then, it's not as if we progsters' couldn't name a few of our own wordsmiths who've been tagged with the same critique.
P.P.S. The Doors best known song (arguably) - Light My Fire was completely written by Robbie Krieger, with the final arrangement coming out of group effort. Djou wanna guess how many folks believe Jimmy boy wrote those words Confused


Edited by pantacruelgruel - March 21 2007 at 23:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2007 at 08:34
Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

...compare LA Woman to everything else happening in 1971 and it is quite a poor album compare it to the Yes album or Meddle by Pink Floyd


Why compare? LA Woman is a completely different album to Meddle or The Yes Album by a completely (stylistically, culturally & most importantly, musically) different kind of band; you could just as easily compare, say, Zappa's 200 Motels and Aphrodites Child's 666... 2 more prog albums released in 1971 but with no other connection.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2007 at 02:38
L.A WOMAN is a bad album?!? that's a new one.....
it deserves at least 4 out of 5 stars
this album is the music maturity it's self if you consider the music style of their previous albums
better listen to it again
https://0a0wake0.bandcamp.com/releases
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2007 at 02:56
it may be 'overrated' but it's a really good record
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2007 at 03:31
overrated?? nope. to me it's much better than the morrison hotel album
https://0a0wake0.bandcamp.com/releases
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2007 at 03:44
Not even slightly overrated.
 
Underrated, if you ask me.
 
"Riders on the Storm" is genius - sure, Jim's voice was trashed, and in many places, you can tell he's not connecting like he used to - the drunken buffoon side of him is strong in places - notably on the title track, but in other places, the whole thing comes together like magic - as with previous Doors albums. The chemistry was still there, even if part of Jim wasn't.
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2007 at 06:51
Love this album- totally agree with Peter that these 'overrated' threads only ever seem to result in 'I don't like it so it's obviously overrated'. IMHO, this is possibly their best album- don't care too much whether it's prog or not, it gets a lot of airings from me.Thumbs%20Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2007 at 11:49
Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

...compare LA Woman to everything else happening in 1971 and it is quite a poor album compare it to the Yes album or Meddle by Pink Floyd


Why compare? LA Woman is a completely different album to Meddle or The Yes Album by a completely (stylistically, culturally & most importantly, musically) different kind of band; you could just as easily compare, say, Zappa's 200 Motels and Aphrodites Child's 666... 2 more prog albums released in 1971 but with no other connection.
 
I agree, it is no-brainer to make such parallels. It is only the liberals on this site who employ the term progressive as an (nearly) all encompassing definition for rock. And it is an age thing to some extent, in that if you were around at the time of release, LA Woman was a classic West Coast Rock-LA sub-division LP, and nobody made comparisons with the emerging British prog scene, that was different rock - although the encompassing term  'underground music' may have been used. So it is plain daft to compare this album musically or content-wise with concurrent ones released by Yes or Floyd (who were still known as a psychedelic band at the time and separate from the newer progressive music groups like Yes).
 
Make comparisons with the concurrent Jefferson Airplane release (post-Volunteers - JA in rebellion), as the music press did in those days: The Doors and JA tour of  the UK  was unofficially known as the battle of West Coast bands, LA v SF divisions), or Spirit's 12 Dreams (IMHO Spirit's belated psychedelic masterpiece, made before the band fell apart - in part to become the pop rock Jo Jo Gunne).  And it is unwise to compare with any Zappa output, since Zappa had essentially rejected that West Coast hippy freak thing - as had Velvet Underground. If you want to compare against a mainstream US prog band of the period you'll have difficulties, after Touch (1968/9) there was a bit of gap before Todd Rundgren's Utopia or Kansas got into that scene.
 
What I do remember was the LA Woman LP was greeted as the Doors doing more blues  less psychedelia - LA Woman/Riders was released as a double sided single a couple times by Elektra to reasonable sales.
 
BTW Jim Morrison had put on a lot of weight because of his booze habit  by this time and at least one Doors' biography suggests the beard was grown to hide his double chins. Less of a pretty boy.


Edited by Dick Heath - May 18 2007 at 11:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2007 at 11:53

I am quite stuned to learn that "L.A. Woman" is the proggiest Doors album. I must be dreaming. It is mostly blues and jazz oriented. Of course, two masterpieces sit there : the title track and "Riders" of course. A couple of great rock songs as well : "Love Her Madly" and "The Changeling".

I can hardly see any prog link at all. Anyway, The Doors were not a prog band and only their first two hold some psychedelic moments which could be related to prog.
 
I have rated this album with three stars because of its inconsistency and lack of great moments, because IMO four great tracks out of ten are just not enough for a masterpiece.
 
Take care.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 16:24
I wouldn't regard The Doors as prog either, but happen to, besides liking real prog, like this music too. Most likely it also guided my musical taste as a teenager to the more "mature" stuff prog is regarded as.

But for sure I don't like it because of the person Jim Morrison. When I really started getting fond of The Doors, Jim was already dead for 10 years and the radio (in Holland) more or less only played Riders on the Storm and Light my Fire. Now for L.A. Woman, perhaps I'm pre-occupied, since it was my first experience with The Doors and I also "found" this album (living near a record factory that threw away all records with small press defects at a place where I, as a child, could reach it by getting very very early in the morning at the factory premises, risking being kicked off by the not a quite nice security guy). I do not regard L.A. Woman as flat, especially not the title song. However, yes, you can see Jim's demise coming. What is music? Only fun listening, easy music? Or does it also represent an era and life itself in a way, through the people that perform it? The latter is something I do take into consideration when listening to music, in this way extending its purpose perhaps, but making it more interesting. L.A. Woman represents an aggression, a drive (for life maybe? Jim seeing it coming?) that is rather hypnotizing and to my opinion well worked out; raw maybe, therefore real. That's worth a lot I think, especially in a time where instruments have been replaced by computers, taking away the soul of it. But maybe I'm just too old Wink


Edited by jeromach - June 01 2007 at 16:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 23:12
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

...compare LA Woman to everything else happening in 1971 and it is quite a poor album compare it to the Yes album or Meddle by Pink Floyd


Why compare? LA Woman is a completely different album to Meddle or The Yes Album by a completely (stylistically, culturally & most importantly, musically) different kind of band; you could just as easily compare, say, Zappa's 200 Motels and Aphrodites Child's 666... 2 more prog albums released in 1971 but with no other connection.
 
I agree, it is no-brainer to make such parallels. It is only the liberals on this site who employ the term progressive as an (nearly) all encompassing definition for rock. And it is an age thing to some extent, in that if you were around at the time of release, LA Woman was a classic West Coast Rock-LA sub-division LP, and nobody made comparisons with the emerging British prog scene, that was different rock - although the encompassing term  'underground music' may have been used. So it is plain daft to compare this album musically or content-wise with concurrent ones released by Yes or Floyd (who were still known as a psychedelic band at the time and separate from the newer progressive music groups like Yes).
 
Make comparisons with the concurrent Jefferson Airplane release (post-Volunteers - JA in rebellion), as the music press did in those days: The Doors and JA tour of  the UK  was unofficially known as the battle of West Coast bands, LA v SF divisions), or Spirit's 12 Dreams (IMHO Spirit's belated psychedelic masterpiece, made before the band fell apart - in part to become the pop rock Jo Jo Gunne).  And it is unwise to compare with any Zappa output, since Zappa had essentially rejected that West Coast hippy freak thing - as had Velvet Underground. If you want to compare against a mainstream US prog band of the period you'll have difficulties, after Touch (1968/9) there was a bit of gap before Todd Rundgren's Utopia or Kansas got into that scene.
 
What I do remember was the LA Woman LP was greeted as the Doors doing more blues  less psychedelia - LA Woman/Riders was released as a double sided single a couple times by Elektra to reasonable sales.
 
BTW Jim Morrison had put on a lot of weight because of his booze habit  by this time and at least one Doors' biography suggests the beard was grown to hide his double chins. Less of a pretty boy.


What you all are saying is that you can't compare anything with anything so therefore by all your logic you should rate all your reviews 5 stars since you can't compare it anything else.
And while your all at this what are your views about hip hopWink
remeber you can't compareLOL.





  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2007 at 14:48

Great album its music and i like it. The title track röck so %¤#" hard ! And yeah i love hip hop got any problem with that? Are you the music police or sumething? Confused

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2007 at 14:51
I think that everything by the Doors is grossly overrated, personally.
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