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Swinton MCR View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Retrospective listening the
    Posted: March 02 2005 at 13:45

Reason why I don't Like KC ?

Blacksword has hit the nail on the head by saying if I had listened to ITCOTCK in 1970 I would have loved it ! - Has my taste been developed by the mass of prog - (1970 - Now) and thus alters my perception of Early KC ??

At the moment I'm finding the keyboard heavy Glass-Hammer to be rather Good.... I think it's a bit twee for some people......

If Music be the food of Love, Play on.......
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2005 at 13:54

I shouldn't think so;

Your reasons for not liking a piece are just that (er... state the bleedin' obvious, Cert!).

I think ITCOTCK is an amazing album - and I came to it in 1979.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2005 at 14:15

It can happen though. I have heard albums from the 70's for the first time and thought "I'm sure I would have loved that at the time, but it sounds too dated now".

Give it a few more listens though Swinton, many of the best albums don't grab you the first or even the fifth time.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2005 at 14:24
Glass Hammer are a very good band.The King Crimson album is an important but 'dated' recording that is certainly worth an occasional listen.It's easy to be very 'precious' about these early recordings and to ignore the current prog scene though.I listen to a lot of the more 'up to date' prog because it has all the elements I look for in music.Glass Hammer are a classic case of that.They use(rip-off??) ELP,Yes and Genesis stylings but blend it all together nicely.Not original but very satisfying to listen to which should be the main point of music. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2005 at 14:34

i  have been listening to prog for about 2.5 years now i think, I heard ITCOTKC about a year ago, and its historical importance still radiates

Aaron

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2005 at 14:46
I've been a Crimso fan for nigh on 30 years, man and boy, and I think ITCOTCK is massively over rated. Although I still enjoy their early albums, for me the Crims only really got going with Lark's Tongues In Aspic, which still sounds fresh and exciting today (to me anyway).
'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2005 at 19:27
Listen to the larks tounges in aspic period, your tune may change
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2005 at 19:36
It's a cornerstone of prog. You can dislike it, but should have one copy (in vynil, mandatory!) in order to testify your progness.
Please forgive me for my crappy english!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2005 at 19:45

Without a time machine, retrospection is- for many of us- the only way to approach most of the prog classics. I was barely toilet-trained by the time most of the best prog came out (and no, I wasn't wetting the bed late in life ).

A lot of prog sounds dated to many of us. That's not necessarily a bad thing (most jazz, blues, and classical sounds pretty darn dated too) unless your ears are determined not to like anything more than a decade old. ITCOTCK sounds even more dated than usual because the recording quality is not great (what say you, 70sSoundQualityMan?) and this alone can be quite fatiguing on the ears.

I can't really call it my favorite KC albums either, but those who say you should at least have it in your collection are probably correct.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2005 at 19:51
I think Swinton has a point. It's not KC but VDGG for me. I've been listening to Pawn Hearts on and off for about two months and I just can't get into it. On the other hand I really like The Least We Can Do ... but common perception says Pawn Hearts is their best work!

Maybe I'm just losing it.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2005 at 20:38

the early king crimson is the best, imo, when flutes, cors, saxes, trumpets and violins made true melodies.

nowadays, fripp's mountains-like ego is rather irritating



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2005 at 22:15
ITCOTCK is one of the best records ever..... if you listen to glass hammer you prolly got lost in this prog metal music which is full of great musicians, but definitely has a lack of beauty and originiality compared to the 70s work (i know you're a big genesis fan, u got into them before u started listening to prog metal??)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2005 at 07:44
Originally posted by James Lee James Lee wrote:

A lot of prog sounds dated to many of us. That's not necessarily a bad thing (most jazz, blues, and classical sounds pretty darn dated too) unless your ears are determined not to like anything more than a decade old. ITCOTCK sounds even more dated than usual because the recording quality is not great (what say you, 70sSoundQualityMan?) and this alone can be quite fatiguing on the ears.

I'd be interested in what the more technical listeners have to say on this, but I find the recording quality of 1970's prog generally to be right up there on the vinyl first presses - except that the longer albums all tend to suffer in the inner grooves due to the physical qualities of vinyl, not the recording itself.

That said, the FP of ITCOTCK has a wierd sound - as if it was contrived to sound like music from a dim and distant past - which I really like. I would imagine it had an odd "old" sound back when it was released (probably due to the haunting Mellotrons). Genesis albums such as Trespass and Nursery Cryme suffer from appalling, thin drum production, but the sound quality overall is big and symphonic, if slightly over-condensed (I suspect from enthusiastic mixing), and the Mellotrons play a similar trick.

It has to be said that early Yes albums don't suffer from this at all - the fat Hammond and bass sound on "Yes" is just awesome, and must've made the pressing engineer have kittens when he heard all that bass.

ELP production seems to have been somewhat muddy - maybe to hide the slightly clumsy/enthusiastic performances, but with similar attention paid to drum and bass.

My last consideration is Pink Floyd - the production and recording quality on all their albums seems pretty near perfect for the music. "Piper at the Gates of Dawn" has the mighty force of Abbey Road stamped all over it - some of the tracks on that album still startle me with the spatial awareness in the production that you hardly hear anywhere else (e.g. The Gnome, Powr Toc H).

I love the sound of recordings made on analogue kit - the over-polishedness of digital studios is somewhat clinical, even if the clarity and depth are impressive. Good, well-executed music will always shine through dodgy equipment and bad production, IMO and, as the old phrase has it; "You can't polish a turd". It all depends on what you want from your listening experience; a hit of something polished and full of bling, or a journey into a world in which musicians and listener forge an aural landscape in which to get thoroughly lost for 40 minutes or so.

Jazz and Blues always sound better to me on a vinyl record that is slightly scratchy. I love the antiquity of the sound - listen to anything by Miles, Thelonius Monk, Charlie Mingus, John Lee Hooker, John Mayall or Savoy Brown on a cheap 2nd hand LP bought from eBay and smile! That said, get a near-perfect FP of Led Zep II and feel your HiFi crumbling under the pressure! No CD can do that.

Classical music could be a matter of taste, but I never hear it as dated - just music of its time. I like to hear recordings of "authentic" performances on period instruments, as I'm not keen on the popular homogenous sound of modern symphony orchestras. However, different productions with different conductors and musicians focus on different aspects in the music, and it's always interesting to compare recordings - particularly of "well-known" works. An innovative interpretation can challenge you on how well you really know the piece.

It's a pity in some ways that digital technology has advanced the way it has, as it seems to me that the accent is no longer on "How good can we make the music?", but "How good can we make the music sound?". A couple of throwaway riffs can be transformed using copy and paste, digitally effected, EQed, then compressed to death, and anyone can sing in tune with a voice transposer.

But is it real?

Answers on a postcard to:

 

Someone that gives a monkey's...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2005 at 08:02
Originally posted by frosty frosty wrote:

I think Swinton has a point. It's not KC but VDGG for me. I've been listening to Pawn Hearts on and off for about two months and I just can't get into it. On the other hand I really like The Least We Can Do ... but common perception says Pawn Hearts is their best work!

Maybe I'm just losing it.
 


Nah mate, if you don't like it, then you don't like it. Maybe one day you'll listen to it again and find a way in but don't think just 'cos I'm not getting it, there's something wrong with my taste.

There are some great albums out there that I don't really get either; Topographic Oceans, Foxtrot, Neu II, and Aqualung to name a few but hey, it doesn't make them crap albums. On the other hand, there are albums that I love which are usually panned here but in some ways that makes them 'mine' which is equally cool.

You stick to your guns.


I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision.
- Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2005 at 08:19
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by James Lee James Lee wrote:

A lot of prog sounds dated to many of us. That's not necessarily a bad thing (most jazz, blues, and classical sounds pretty darn dated too) unless your ears are determined not to like anything more than a decade old. ITCOTCK sounds even more dated than usual because the recording quality is not great (what say you, 70sSoundQualityMan?) and this alone can be quite fatiguing on the ears.


It's a pity in some ways that digital technology has advanced the way it has, as it seems to me that the accent is no longer on "How good can we make the music?", but "How good can we make the music sound?". A couple of throwaway riffs can be transformed using copy and paste, digitally effected, EQed, then compressed to death, and anyone can sing in tune with a voice transposer.

But is it real?

Answers on a postcard to:

Someone that gives a monkey's...



That's an interesting question. I guess that technical excellence in all things is to be strived for but I believe that it's all relative. The big band jazzers used to complain that electric instruments made it easy for 'anybody' to become a musician and that sooner or later music would die due to lack of talent.

Well, we all know that was wrong...

It true that things like Auto Tune can correct an out of tune voice or a compressor an uneven playing performance but then most of us use spell checkers on our computers which is more or less the same thing, it's just that no-one asked the same questions.

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And yes, that was a lame excuse to post a pic of a Mariah in a bikini. Here's DJ shadow to even things up...



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I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision.
- Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill
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