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Topic ClosedWHO WAS THE GUILTY OF GENESIS DECADENCE ?

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Jaja Brasil View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: WHO WAS THE GUILTY OF GENESIS DECADENCE ?
    Posted: March 06 2005 at 20:58

Hi Everybody,

After the discussion about "ATOTT", I keep myself thinking:

Who was the guilty of the Genesis decadence sound after de departure of Steve Hackett ?

Was Phil Collins thirst of money ? It was a decision of all the group (but then they were 3...) ?

Or do you have other theory ? I would like to hear it...

Best Greetings 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2005 at 21:09

GENESIS ROCKED IN THE EIGHTIES, it was the best pop-rock band of the era, together with Queen and some more contemporary artist,

It wasn't decandence sound, it was the opposite, stripped down to the core of the music, melodie and rhythm in perfect syncopation, without the symphonication and layered construction of their better days music, I like it pretty much from a pop-perspective.

 

I don't know if it was a complete consious decision to play more pop and less prog, it just grew that way (even during the Gabriel era there was a popsensibility to their music)
And indeed Gabriel's succes with more mainstream music, not to mension Phil's influence led the way to this new sound they developed during the eighties.



Edited by tuxon
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2005 at 21:37
I partially agree with Tuxon. They moved on to a different type of sound. I would say it was antural after Hackett leaving, especially with 2 members like Rutherford and collins in the band, but I od like some of their material from "Abacab", "Genesis", and maybe hints of it in "Invisible Touch." Generally though their pop is maybe average, and I would consider their music to have declined significantly. Pop can be done well, but not so much when Collins and Rutherford are in charge, or at least rarely. Gabriel of course does pop the best. It seems ot me like Tony Banks decided to suck once they reached invisible touch.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2005 at 21:50

"Genesis" is a great album, (except illegal alien taking it too hard and its gonna get better) just not prog, abacab also has its merits. I cant listen to we cant dacne, and have never heard invisible touch. GREAT pop rock.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2005 at 21:53

Hi Guys,

But you must agree that to us, Prog Lovers, it was a decadence in the sound of the band, apart they turned to a great pop band .

I'm still thinking that they found a way to make money (and it' not a shame ! Who doesn't want it ???). But in a great pop style. And we all know to make money, play Prog music is not the best way...

Am I very wrong ???

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2005 at 22:01
Originally posted by Hangedman Hangedman wrote:

"Genesis" is a great album, (except illegal alien taking it too hard and its gonna get better) just not prog, abacab also has its merits. I cant listen to we cant dacne, and have never heard invisible touch. GREAT pop rock.

I would put it more like "Genesis" is a good album Until Illegal Alien.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2005 at 22:03

I do agree that thier prog output is much better than the pop stuff, I cant even compare the two really.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2005 at 22:04
One things for sure, anyone who publishes Who Dunnit? and even contemplates putting it in an album is devoid of all musical integrity, even for Phil Collin's standards.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2005 at 22:04

I do believe it's decadence, normal evolution goes from simple to more complex, Genesis went just the opposite way, I like SOME POP but Genesis POP was bland and boring.

When you love so much a band as I loved early Genesis, you can  accept changes, but not from Musical Box to Illegal Alien or From Supper's Ready to We can't Dance.

Who is responsible?

Phil Collins, Tony Banks and Michael Rutherford, in that order.

Phil Collins: Took the lead and slowly pushed the band towards the style he liked more and was easier for him. After that he became more and more interested in making a personal fortune than in music.

Tony Banks: I don't understand him, Phil Collins was not a founder and didn't had a classical music formation, but Genesis was Tony Banks creation (Along with Mike and Peter), I can understand he wanted economic seccurity, but I believe they went too far.

Mike Rutherford: Also a founder but less important for the Genesis composition and sound than Tony Banks, he also choosed the easy way.

Iván

            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2005 at 02:49
$$$ pushed GENESIS to create such masterpieces as"Invisible Touch" and "We Can't Dance". I think all three guys should be equally blamed. Phil is just the front man and so gets most of the barbs...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2005 at 06:33

Originally posted by Vegetableman Vegetableman wrote:

One things for sure, anyone who publishes Who Dunnit? and even contemplates putting it in an album is devoid of all musical integrity, even for Phil Collin's standards.

And there was Rutherford's money-chasing Mike & The Mechanics...........................

Come on who can blame the guys, most of whom came from wealthy upper middle class families, spending 5 or 6 years in apparent rock poverty, wanting to break through into the big time. Genesis's (and Peter gabriel who had gone his own way) recognition that straight  (or should that be 'complex') prog had had its days if only in the big time arena, and therefore having to evolve to music which was stadium friendly and shipped records by the truck load, was the route to stay solvent. Besides these guys would have families and then divorces to pay for. I can think of only a few musicians who have stayed true to their original musical aims, and those guys aren't rich.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2005 at 08:02

I always disagree when people claim that Genesis' 80s-90s output is bad. Those albums are no masterpieces but they are still very good and everyone who is interested in Genesis should at least give them a try. In my opinion "We Can't Dance" is the only Genesis album that doesn't come up to standard. It's not bad it just feels rather uninspired. And "Calling All Stations", in a way a new start with a different band, is surprisingly good.

"Me and Sarah Jane", "Dodo", "Home by the Sea", "Silver Rainbow", "Domino" and "The Brazilian" are a few songs (there are many more) that should appeal to any fan of classic Genesis and good prog in general.

When it comes to solo and side-project albums I must say that Collins and Rutherford aren't very interesting. There are a few exceptions like Rutherford's debut and Collins' debut. On the other hand everything Banks has done is worth having in my opinion.  Banks solo works are closest to Genesis and, I will claim, Collins' solo albums are farthest from Genesis.

 



Edited by Mategra
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2005 at 08:16

Phil once said in an interview " we just decided to sell out!"

I do quite like some of the later albums but they are a bit too pop driven for me. I think Phil just wanted to try something new, his success as a solo artist made it worse as he then decides to add the sound to genesis albums (e.g. 'in too deep' sounds like it should be on a Phil solo album).

I think it may be unfair to blame just Phil though.  



Edited by Prog_head


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2005 at 08:47
Originally posted by Prog_head Prog_head wrote:

Phil once said in an interview " we just decided to sell out!"

I do quite like some of the later albums but they are a bit too pop driven for me. I think Phil just wanted to try something new, his success as a solo artist made it worse as he then decides to add the sound to genesis albums

I guess Collins' success as a solo artist spilled over to Genesis. His fans bought Genesis albums just because of him.

(e.g. 'in too deep' sounds like it should be on a Phil solo album).

Yes I agree, it sounds like a typical Collins song. But Banks' keyboard work, which culminates in a short but wonderful solo, adds something extra. You'll never hear anything like that on a Collins album. 

 



Edited by Mategra
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2005 at 08:55
I remember during early Phil Solo concerts that some people were shouting for Supper's ready!

Edited by Prog_head


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2005 at 12:09
I quite like "Abacab" the track -  but I'll never forgive Banks/Rutherford for doing that "Silly walk" video - Banks doesn't need the money - he should get back to his roots and produce a second Selling England type CD.......
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2005 at 14:03

 

 

While Phil's sound certainly dominated the 80's Genesis sound I think it was because he first achived sucess outside of the band.  I think Tony and Mike may have given him more room just to keep the group together and keep him from leaving.  It seemed to have worked because long after Phil needed Genesis he stayed. (This is an opinion not based in any real knowledge.)

 

What is really funny, in a strange sense, is that it is Peter who seems very negative on reunion talks and Phil that is open to it. Phil just recently sat in with tribute band The Musical Box for a number in Geneva playing, what else, The Musical Box. Phil has said he wouldn't mind doing a tour behind the kit only.  Peter is the one who says he doesn't want to revisit his "musical adolecence".



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2005 at 15:03

Quote What is really funny, in a strange sense, is that it is Peter who seems very negative on reunion talks and Phil that is open to it. Phil just recently sat in with tribute band The Musical Box for a number in Geneva playing, what else, The Musical Box. Phil has said he wouldn't mind doing a tour behind the kit only.  Peter is the one who says he doesn't want to revisit his "musical adolecence".

I would do the same thing in his situation.

Phil Collins answered an interviewer to the question : Would you let Peter back in Genesis, and Phil answered: No way, we don't need him anymore (Genesis a History)

With that answer, I wouldn't go back neither.

At this point Peter is far more succesful than Genesis or Phil Collins, Collins last tour and albu were a complete faillure and of course CAS was a terrible loss of money, on the other hand Peter's Growing Up Tour was a complete success and his album had much better sales than Collins's or Genesis's.

So it's obvious, Phil wants to use the recent popularity earned with hard work by Peter to sell a couple more albums and Peter doesn't need that.

Iván

            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2005 at 15:12
Originally posted by Hangedman Hangedman wrote:

"Genesis" is a great album, (except illegal alien taking it too hard and its gonna get better) just not prog, abacab also has its merits. I cant listen to we cant dacne, and have never heard invisible touch. GREAT pop rock.

Yes!   And  I always noticed this might be the most looked down upon  I like this album a lot and think it is the bands last fully good effort with rest of them only having moments worth noticing. 

I LOVE ABACAB!!!!!!!!!!! It's better than Duke and all the songs are very, very good and yes I'm talking about "Who Dunnit?" also.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2005 at 15:31
Peter has remained a credible artist while Phil has turned into a joke!


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