WHO WAS THE GUILTY OF GENESIS DECADENCE ?

every time the subject of genesis come up to mind of any fan we always end up argueing the most discuted question of all time was genesis better with phill or with peter oh i have a better one who is better phill or peter grow up guys!!!! please!!! who is better roger or david  ??

 when i listen to the 80's version of genesis i look at the band as a different band and i prog fan,but growning up in the 80's i am also a fan of pop songs from the 80's i discover Genesis in its intire becuase of the 80's hit and still they are great pop song you can can touch genesis can you mentioned a band that can make great pop and prog songs as good as Genesis not even Yes  maybe their 80's hit but that about it !!!! the last genesis album what it is prog,pop what ever you wanna callit  it a classic!!!

I dont know really.... I think Phil definitely was responsible for the direction that Genesis took in the 80s but i'm not too crazy about the direction Peter Gabriel took eitherin the 80s........ Hackett remained the only musician whose music I have liked through the ages........ nothing on the early Genesis stuff but decent all the same.

The only thing I know ( & no one here will disagree) is that the demise of Genesis is THE biggest tragedy of prog..... esp since now when i say i like Genesis, people wrinkle up their noses & go "Ugh..... u mean the Invisible Touch band

James Lee wrote: I think Patrick Bateman said it best.

 (a joke, right?)   (P.B.: the massmurderer of American Psycho who praised new pop-Genesis and said they were earlier just arty farty
crap - while excercising with two whores. Remember, Ivan?  )

Edited by Matti

This infact has nothing to do with Phil Collins or Tony Banks or the departure of Peter Banks...so on and so forth.....

What destroyed genesis????????????

Well if by that you mean what turned Genesis away from composiing progressive rock music, then lets attack it from that angle. I've said it once, good music outweighs genre affiliation. Genesis' turn to pop music does not in itself make it bad. Rather it is the quality of the music that matters. Not all progressive music is good music.....not all classical music is good music, not all jazz is good music. That being said, not all pop music is bad music.

I feel many progfans association of pop music with decadence is truly unfair. The horrible criticism that Phil Collin receives is completely unjust. The band as a whole decided to change direction. Phil Collins did not have some evil foothold over the band and any suggestion of that is just simply unfair.

And as far as Peter Gabriel's departure.....he also changed his style in the 80s......Gabriel began writing and singing pop music as well. If he had stayed "true" and remained on the progressive rock trail then I could see your point. But Selling out is such a vague term anyway.

Phil Collins once said..."Prog rock was something Genesis DID but that's not all Genesis IS"......that pretty much says it all. ....we have somehow managed to confine these artists in a box.....and it's not right.

BUT...since you asked.....WHAT CAUSED THE FALL OF PROG ROCK????

1. The crumbling social and moral frabic of society
2. The declining respect and value towards music and other arts
3. Music's fall from art to pure entertainment
4. The corrupt music industry
5. Dwindling attention spans
6. Our neglect of Nature
7. Overwhelming immersion into technology
8. Capitalism
9. Big Business
10. .....ummm did I mention the CORRUPT MUSIC INDUSTRY
11. Music became product and commodity
12. Lack of musical education and understanding
13. Huge Cultural Shifts
14. Human values and morals change
15. Hollywood
16. The Media
17. The 1980s
18. Punk, New Wave, and Disco
19. The crumbling hopes and dreams of the 1960s and 1970s
20. ......ummmm did I mention the UNFAIR AND UNJUST MUSIC INDUSTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
21. Money...changes in our economy

So as you can see.....it has very little to do with Phil Collins or Tony Banks, or Peter Gabriel's departure............their fault perhaps, if any at all is......going with the tide....they should have fought back.....but the music business is hard and perhaps they valued eating and paying bills over musical integrity.

 

Hangedman wrote: "Genesis" is a great album, (except illegal alien taking it too hard and its gonna get better)

I will show my ratings for the entire album:

1. Mama (10/10)
2. That's all (10/10)
3. Home by the sea (9/10)
4. Second home by the sea (5/10)
5. Illegal alien (8/10)
6. Taking it all too hard (10/10)
7. Just a job to do (6/10)
8. Silver rainbow (9/10)
9. It's gonna get better (5/10, 7/10 for the chorus, the rest is crap, s*cks and ruins the entire song)

BiGi wrote: Odd24 wrote: It seems like I am the only one on earth that really likes Illegal alien  (8/10). You're not alone, man! I dig it too...I find it pretty funny! Odd24 wrote: I do not like Second home by the sea (5/10). Well, it's a much heavier piece to digest...anyway it's my second best pick on that album after Mama. Odd24 wrote: And I love Taking it all too hard (10/10). Man, how I DISAGREE I rate it the worst Genesis track ever, rivaled just by Hold on my heart and Throwing it all away...they just give no emotions to me, nor they are funny or weird (as I stated on the "Collins ballads" thread)

It's nice to see the differences and the similarities. I think the most crappy Genesis' ballads are on Duke and Abacab. I do not like Man on the corner and Alone again.

Edited by Odd24

Odd24 wrote: It seems like I am the only one on earth that really likes Illegal alien  (8/10).

You're not alone, man! I dig it too...I find it pretty funny!

Odd24 wrote: I do not like Second home by the sea (5/10).

Well, it's a much heavier piece to digest...anyway it's my second best pick on that album after Mama.

Odd24 wrote: And I love Taking it all too hard (10/10).

Man, how I DISAGREE
I rate it the worst Genesis track ever, rivaled just by Hold on my heart and Throwing it all away...they just give no emotions to me, nor they are funny or weird (as I stated on the "Collins ballads" thread)

BiGi wrote: Oh, for crying out loud! AGAIN??? or maybe...STILL?

Yes,this subject was discussed so many times.I remember myself answering or discussing or bringing up this subject about seven times.
 

The media is to blame.  They (and Phil Collins) got way too much exposure.  Even to this day, you can't go a day without hearing a Genesis/Phil Collins tune in the waiting room of some doctor's office or any other public place.  You hear him on the radio more than The Beatles for God's sake.  He's everywhere, whether you want it or not.  Peter Gabriel had significant mainstream success, but it's always a pleasant surprise to hear him on the radio or see him on tv.  He has a familiar and pleasant voice that we've grown to love, but haven't been burned out on.  Also his music is always interesting, there's always a lot emotion to it.

I think the general public is burned out on Phil Collins.  He has a familiar and pleasant voice too, but now when we hear him, it's no longer a pleasant surprise, it's "not him again."  It doesn't help that his music tends to be bland and boring.

I find it interesting that it's impossible to find a fan of Genesis nowadays who does not like the early stuff.  Back in the 80's the world was full of Genesis fans who preferred the pop to the prog stuff.  Why don't they exist anymore?  Well, they're the ones that hate Genesis now, or have become indifferent to it.  On the other hand, fans that were alienated in the eighties have actually stuck with them.  It tells you something about prog fans vs. pop fans.

Edited by Gianthogweed

I hate this argument.  There has always been somebody trying to pinpoint the "moment" that Genesis became more commercial.  For some its Trick Of the Tail but I'm sorry in 1975/6 I don't remember the charts being littered with songs like Robbery Assault and Battery or Mad man Moon.  It's only with hindsight that Phil Collins became incredibly successful as a solo artist that people want to say that Trick was the "start" as he took over lead vocal, or is it the title track?  If thats the case then you can date the supposed decline back to the Lamb (Counting Out Time) or Selling (More Fool Me/I Know What I Like) etc. etc.

I don't think their albums became blatently commercial until Abacab and thats a bloody wierd album.

I loved all eras and beleive that the "spirit" was always the same throughout.  The only change was style not content.

I certainly do not claim to be an expert on this matter, but I was curious as to the reasons for the change in sound myself several years ago. What I discovered reading through interviews and magazine articles and the band's own official website has made me rethink the idea of blaming Phil alone. According to what I learned, it was a GROUP decision to change style with the times. From what I remember, it was TONY who pushed the idea the hardest and Phil who resisted the most! Phil had stated that he did pop songs on his solo albums and didn't want to do the same thing with Genesis. Phil in fact was responsible for keeping in some the early classics like Fountain Of Salmacis in the setlist, where the others wanted to drop them and play only things that Phil had sung lead vocal on. As Phil said in an interview on their website, "just try to get Tony Banks to do something he doesn't want to do, its impossible!" The times were changing, and Genesis changed with them. If you notice, most bands that have lasted decades together have changed with the times. The ones who didn't were left in the dust. Making music was their livelihood, and they didn't want it to end! After all, do the Rolling Stones sound the same as they did in 1972? Does Bob Dylan? No, of course not. You can't please everybody all the time. For every fan who was upset by the change, there was another two that were thankful! I'm not saying I prefer the eighties material (I don't), but I respect the band's decision to keep working in an environment that was becoming increasingly unfriendly to prog. If you want to blame someone, blame the public, who didn't buy enough records by prog acts to keep it a viable genre for most record companies. ~IMHO~