Journey - prog related? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

markosherrera View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: October 01 2006
Location: World
Status: Offline
Points: 3252

Posted: December 22 2007 at 07:42

A new genre...=not prog with one or two albums prog or some prog songs

Sean Trane View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19618

Posted: December 22 2007 at 07:57

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

bhikkhu wrote:

Why don't we just add every big rock band from the '70s, and be done with it.

Shouldn't people use the search button and find if a band has been discuussed before?

Already Aeternus has started threads about Toto and Journey, this bands have been discussed repeatedly and the answer was always NO.

Iván

Well one year ago, I would've said no to jpourney in PR, but since Zep's inclusion, I can't find a solid reason why they shouyldn't be in in regards to their first tyhree albums. Plus Rollie & Schon are both linked to Santana and Dunbar to Frank Zappa.

Toto, however, please no. Good musicianship but never a prog album. Ditto for Boston and REO Speedwagon and other AOR group....

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: December 22 2007 at 11:50

Sean Trane wrote:

Well one year ago, I would've said no to jpourney in PR, but since Zep's inclusion, I can't find a solid reason why they shouyldn't be in in regards to their first tyhree albums. Plus Rollie & Schon are both linked to Santana and Dunbar to Frank Zappa.

Sean, a mistake doesn't justify another one, Journey is not Prog or Prog Related, it was not a year ago and obviously since they released no Prog album in last year, the answer should be the same.

BTW: The personal relation doesn't justify the inclusion of a band, as the definfinition clearly states:

Prog Related

Progressive rock is not a separate universe in music, it’s a genre among many others, a voice in the chorus and as part of a biggest scenario has points of contact with other musical genres.

Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:

- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, OR

- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community, OR

- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.

We specify the word MUSICAL because simple performance of a determined instrument in a Prog or mainstream band is not justification enough to include an artist, no matter how virtuoso he/she may be, Prog Archives has to evaluate their compositional work because the music is what determines the characteristics of a band or an artist.

Prog Related bands are not considered part of the genre but they have contributed in some form in the development of Progressive Rock, the inclusion of a band is exceptional and only after verifying that it’s a contribution for the better understanding of Prog among the members and visitors instead of a source of confusion for the community.

The text is clear, you need more than just being part of a Prog or Prog Related band.

Iván

Sean Trane View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19618

Posted: December 22 2007 at 12:50

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Sean Trane wrote:

Sean, a mistake doesn't justify another one, Journey is not Prog or Prog Related, it was not a year ago and obviously since they released no Prog album in last year, the answer should be the same.

BTW: The personal relation doesn't justify the inclusion of a band, as the definfinition clearly states:

The text is clear, you need more than just being part of a Prog or Prog Related band.

Iván

Ivàn,

I wouldn't call it Zep's inclusion a mistake or an error.

I was against Zep in PA, like a bunch of us, but M@X decided to go for it, therefore it was a new direction given to prog-related.and he decided after a careful weighing of pro and cons. I have stated that to me, Zep's inclusion changed almost everything in prog related and opened the door to

Just as I don't call Deep Purple prog, they were included for their first three albums and the concerto, into proto prog. And the inclusion of The Who in Proto because of one mini-opera suite...... >> both groups would simply fit better in prog related.

The reason why I brought on Purple is because of their inclusion because of the first three albums. Journey fits exactly that criteria and betters their case over Pu^ple by having members of the group that were in bands that are already on site >>> this is not Purple's case.

If you are to listen to their debut and Look Into The Future, you'll have no problems realizing that at least those two albums are much proggier than say Kansas' TPONR or Masque. I am less familiar with Next (their third) but everyone agrees that it's still prog enough.

They were actually forced into tking the unsufferable Steve Perry into their group by their very owxn label or loose their recording contract, thus prompting Dunbar to leave after one Perry-era album and Rollie after two more. They became the kings of AOR , but then again DP and Zep became the kings of hard rock and Sab the king of metal. All these groups are now in, there is little to say Journey shouldn't especially listening to their first three albums.

BTW, I literally loath the Perry-era Journey, so this is no petiseb

Edited by Sean Trane - December 22 2007 at 13:13

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Logan

Forum & Site Admin Group

Site Admin

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: @ wicker man
Status: Offline
Points: 32685

Posted: December 22 2007 at 13:07

Shakespeare wrote:

Technically speaking, every single rock or even pop band are in some way related to prog.

I would go so far as to say EVERY band ever is in a very distant way related.

Yes, as i sometimes like to say, of course they're related, it just depends on how close the relation is (sibling, father, uncle, cousin, second cousin, grandparent, great grandparent) It forms a Prog family tree.

Incidentally, for people who are familiar with "Six degrees of Kevin Bacon," I've wanted to see something similar done with Prog (though it would have to be done by group). A really detailed musical family tree would be better though (seen some decent Prog, Prog Related, and Related to Prog Related ones --though not termed that way, but...).

Just a fanboy passin' through.

Mandrakeroot View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Italian Prog Specialist

Joined: March 01 2006
Location: San Foca, Friûl
Status: Offline
Points: 5851

Posted: December 22 2007 at 13:12

Sean Trane wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Sean Trane wrote:

Sean, a mistake doesn't justify another one, Journey is not Prog or Prog Related, it was not a year ago and obviously since they released no Prog album in last year, the answer should be the same.

BTW: The personal relation doesn't justify the inclusion of a band, as the definfinition clearly states:

The text is clear, you need more than just being part of a Prog or Prog Related band.

Iván

Ivàn,

I wouldn't call it Zep's inclusion a mistake or an error.

Thanks, Sean trane. Reasoning very well I cannot that to be all right with you on all the line!

Edited by Mandrakeroot - December 22 2007 at 13:13

erik neuteboom View Drop Down

Prog Reviewer

Joined: July 27 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 7659

Posted: December 22 2007 at 16:33

You can make excellent, very clear descriptions of genres but what matters on Prog Archives is the band addition policy and I agree with Sean that the additions of some bands create the possibility for countless Prog-related bands to be added to Prog Archives. From now to at least 2112 this will be a source for heated discussions and disagreements between collaborators here on Prog Archives. Personally I cannot imagine that fellow collaborators judge that Journey should not be here, they deserve to be here in Heavy Prog or at least in Prog-related. When I visited their concerts in 1978 and 1980 it was because they made Heavy Prog (1978) and Prog-related music (1980) and I still consider those concerts as very interesting prog experiences

Edited by erik neuteboom - December 22 2007 at 16:45

Atavachron View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 64352

Posted: December 22 2007 at 16:50

erik neuteboom wrote:

Well Atavachron, about early Journey, it's a matter of taste and opinion: lots of posters show their appreciation for early Journey and notice sufficient progressive elements for an addition but the Heavy Prog team doesn't, if I was in the Heavy Prog or Prog Related team with some positive posters, early Journey would have been on Prog Archives very soon, it's that simple how it works here on Prog Archives.

this is true Erik, but I have to do what I believe is right, just as you do

Mandrakeroot View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Italian Prog Specialist

Joined: March 01 2006
Location: San Foca, Friûl
Status: Offline
Points: 5851

Posted: December 23 2007 at 17:43

erik neuteboom wrote:

Erik... I think that basically the correct place for Journey is Prog Related. today I've bougth their first album called Journey and a great 2CD collection called Essential (based on AOR period) and I think that Journey is an extreme great inclusion in PA.

P.s.: In 1987 I discover Raised on Radio... And I don't know because but to it knew myself of something of Progressive... But this is insignificant in my judgment!

Ely78

Forum Senior Member

Joined: July 20 2007
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 169

Posted: December 27 2007 at 18:45

For me yes. I've listen to "Journey" with Mandrakeroot and I think that the answer is obvious: yes!!!

When the love becomes poetry, distant from the eyes

(Quando l'Amore Diventa poesia/ Lontano Dagli occhi [Aphrodite's Child)

micky

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828

Posted: December 30 2007 at 12:22

Atavachron wrote:

erik neuteboom wrote:

this is true Erik, but I have to do what I believe is right, just as you do

damn straight... that is the difference between those who volunteer their time for the site.. .and collaborate on it's behalf.. as opposed to those who choose to stay outside of the system. We all have opinons... those who chose, and are chosen to colloborate.. have the final say. That is how it works here Erik.

The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

ghost_of_morphy View Drop Down

Prog Reviewer

Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755

Posted: January 01 2008 at 12:27

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Sean, a mistake doesn't justify another one, Journey is not Prog or Prog Related, it was not a year ago and obviously since they released no Prog album in last year, the answer should be the same.

BTW: The personal relation doesn't justify the inclusion of a band, as the definfinition clearly states:

Prog Related

Progressive rock is not a separate universe in music, itï¿½s a genre among many others, a voice in the chorus and as part of a biggest scenario has points of contact with other musical genres.

Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:

- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, OR

- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community, OR

- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.

We specify the word MUSICAL because simple performance of a determined instrument in a Prog or mainstream band is not justification enough to include an artist, no matter how virtuoso he/she may be, Prog Archives has to evaluate their compositional work because the music is what determines the characteristics of a band or an artist.

Prog Related bands are not considered part of the genre but they have contributed in some form in the development of Progressive Rock, the inclusion of a band is exceptional and only after verifying that itï¿½s a contribution for the better understanding of Prog among the members and visitors instead of a source of confusion for the community.

The text is clear, you need more than just being part of a Prog or Prog Related band.

Ivï¿½n

Unless you are talking about adding Boston, in which case the text doesn't mean what it says any more.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: January 01 2008 at 12:49

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Unless you are talking about adding Boston, in which case the text doesn't mean what it says any more.

Yes it does because of the last parragraph:

Prog Related bands are not considered part of the genre but they have contributed in some form in the development of Progressive Rock, the inclusion of a band is exceptional and only after verifying that it's a contribution for the better understanding of Prog among the members and visitors instead of a source of confusion for the community.

Boston would be a source of confusion for the community, because it's the most representative band of AOR as most people understand it, traditionally they are considered a POP band with SOME influence fr0om Prog, but as much as from many other genres.

Boston is not a contributoion for a better understanding of Prog, by the contrary, i's a source of confusion and of contradiction, because if we added them, we would be forced to add other similar bands like Reo Speedwagon or Eagles, and that would go against the essense of Prog.

IvÃ¡n

Mandrakeroot View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Italian Prog Specialist

Joined: March 01 2006
Location: San Foca, Friûl
Status: Offline
Points: 5851

Posted: January 01 2008 at 12:57

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Unless you are talking about adding Boston, in which case the text doesn't mean what it says any more.

Yes it does because of the last parragraph:

IvÃ¡n

All true. But I agree with those who say that "Journey" is a Prog album. Even though I do not like to admit that much is an album of a band that deserves to be in PA.

Easy Livin View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585

Posted: April 19 2008 at 05:07

I'm not sure if it was ever announced, but Journey have been approved for additon as Prog Related.

Sean Trane View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19618

Posted: April 19 2008 at 07:50

Easy Livin wrote:

I'm not sure if it was ever announced, but Journey have been approved for additon as Prog Related.

There was a time when I would've opposed thisbut since the inclusion of Zeppelin in PR of PA, I now can only applaud this on the basis of the first two albums, whichare full-blown prog and until Ainsley Dunbazr (andlater Rollie) left, remained correct.

Edited by Sean Trane - April 19 2008 at 07:50

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

micky

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828

Posted: April 19 2008 at 08:33

good deal... nice to see that approval... Clap

The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Cesar Inca View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 19 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 4888

Posted: April 19 2008 at 08:45

I wish JOurney hadn't been here, but well, I guess it's some sing of the times. Earlier, Toto was named as an example, but let me tell you that for a non-prog band, Toto handles more prog-like elements than Journey ever did. Boston would be even a bigger disgrace than Journey to be included here... but apparently, Journey has been approved. Consistency and coherence seem not to play a big role in this system of PA inclusion. Zeppelin, Sabbath, Bowie, Talk Talk, Journey,... all of them find a quick road into this lace that is not their home, while other bands who are very genuinely connected to the prog stuff find it slower (lack of sound samples, slow discussions among members, indecisions about labels, overall indifference...). Well, what do I know anyway?

Kind regards.

Easy Livin View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585

Posted: April 19 2008 at 11:12

As Hugues says, Journey's approval is due to their early albums.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down