Progarchives.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Other music related lounges > General Music Discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: No Offense, But Why...
  FAQ FAQ  Forum SearchSearch  Calendar   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedNo Offense, But Why...

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 151617
Author
Message
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Symphonic Prog Specialist

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17604
Direct Link To This Post Topic: No Offense, But Why...
    Posted: April 23 2008 at 21:22
Originally posted by MHDTV


Public Enemy also uses a horn section,
 
ABACAB also, but this doesn't make it good, plus the horn section follows a constant pattern with almost no variations.
 
a drum machine,
 
Great, you add a machine that replaces the drummer to a record player, very skilled.Wink
 
various 'effects like sirens etc, synths and a whole lot of other things.
 
But the center of the songs in his case are normally in the sample, the other instruments also follow a repetoitive pattern.
 
Why does Blockhead need to compose them all? Sampling like he does requires just as much creativity as writing a 'real' song.
 
I don't think so, he's using what other did and adding a repetitive chord, as Trademark said, that can be done by a seventh grader with good technology.
 
Please, if it was harder to copy than to create...He would be creating.
 
I didn't literally mean understand, I mean you don't like rap. Fine. But that doesn't mean it's unoriginal or doesn't require talent.
 
That's what I hink, it's unoriginal, repetitive and doesn't require special talent IMHO.
 
Every band I mention that goes against your generilizations you'll dismissed as mediocre or worse.
 
Only the oones I heard.
 
 I could name hundreds of rap artists that use samples inventively or make up their own beats,
 
You said the magic word BEAT, which is different to elaborate music and melody.
 
but you won't like any of them. You still haven't responded to half my post by the way.
 
I believe I replied it completely.
 
Iván
 
 
Back to Top
Trademark View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1009
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2008 at 22:43
I teach a university level music technology class.  I spend several weeks every quarter presenting material on the history and the vast musical potential of the electronic music-making software and hardware in our computer labs.  We listen to what the early pioneers did with a handful of oscillators and a few patch cords, we study what is being done today by the brightest names in the business (Paul Lansky, Bright Cheng, etc.) and when it comes time for them to turn in their projects what do I get from my aspiring group of Hip Hop "Pudusas"?

Jay Z rapping over Black Sabbath; Jay Z rapping over Queen, Jay Z rapping over Billy Squier, Jay Z rapping over The Beatles, etc., etc., Or maybe Jay Z rapping while Michael Jackson sings over Black Sabbath, Queen, Billy Squier, The Beatles, etc,  Jay Z rapping while Whitney sings over Black Sabbath, Queen, Billy Squier, The Beatles etc., etc. etc., etc.. 

The students hoping for an A will often add a tambourine and a 4 note synth lick to make it "original".  They are often disappointed.  This quarter is going better as I instituted a policy that reads, "Do a mash-up, fail the class".  The sad thing is they often do work that is every bit as good as anything heard in the "rap business" and they learned it all in ten weeks. That's largely because there's not really much creativity involved.  Finding good samples takes time, and learning to use the equipment takes time, but apart from that, literally anyone can do it.  A perfectly fine Mash-up can be assembled in 20 minutes; half hour tops.  Its as simple as dirt; absolutely the easiest thing you can do with the software, so calling it a creative art by touting the technological prowess of the perpetrators is like calling Sid Vicious the most technically advanced bass player to ever live.

A creative field?  Not in the least.  A derivative field?  Absolutely, positively.  Dear God can you think of nothing else to do with this technology?  The possibilities are limitless.


Edited by Trademark - April 23 2008 at 23:11
Back to Top
MHDTV View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 19 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 144
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2008 at 23:27
@Ivan:
1. Listen to Welcome To The Terrordrome
2. You're not getting it. More than samples.
3. Yes, the samples are the center. But he uses them in a very creative way, that very few people could use to the same effect. Sure a 7th grader could make a song like that. But it would be sh*t, right? A 3rd grader who can play the recorder can write a song in 5 minutes. It would be sh*t right? Goes both ways my friend.
4. Just try and rap.
5. Honestly Public Enemy doesn't cater to a Prog fans tastes. Try Gang Starr or Labor Days by Aesop Rock. Massive Attack and Portishead are great Trip-Hop.
6. Beat is slang for a song.
7. You're attacking what you've heard of rap is. I'm defending what rap can be, and what I consider good rap to be. The potential of Hip Hop is limitless.
Freak yo' swerve
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 16130
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2008 at 23:49
If I may drop a word here, in my perspective defending rap from a musical perspective is quite difficult and maybe even impossible, as I also think it's a very simple style of music. The thing is: not every music caters to people for the same reason, and not everybody listens to music for the same reason. While proggers usually listen to their music to find the details, the musicianship, to be amazed, I guess that usually people that hear hip-hop or rap are not reallt trying to be amazed and amazed at the compositional skills of the rapper. They may want to
a.) hear how the rapper can say a lot of rimes in a few minutes, and it takes some skills (not musical, again, other skills) to be able to actually rap fast and with coherence.
b) have a good beat to drive to, or to just dance, or do whatever they want. Seeing that the bass line is the focus in rap and hiphop, and knowing how low frequencies are the ones that  impact physically the most, going to specific areas of the brain, it's obvious it's useful musicto do certain things.
c) just have FUN. I guess we all agree that we don't listen to music for the same reason. The gyt that listens to hiphop and loves it is in no way musically inferior to the one who loves Alban Berg, because they are not looking for the same thing when they hear their music.
d) Also, i guess it's excellent music to show off your car stereo like many people do... (not that I respect them so muchTongue but hey, it's a free country).
 
So, why do we have to compare apples with oranges? That both rap and prog share the same artistic denomination, MUSIC, doesn't mean they are made with the same puropose in mind or that are enjoyed with the same purpose in mind.
 
 
Back to Top
jammun View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3438
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2008 at 23:56
Originally posted by MHDTV

@Ivan:
The potential of Hip Hop is limitless.
 
As long as there are actual musicians creating music to be sampled.
Back to Top
Proletariat View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1882
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2008 at 00:05
Originally posted by The T

If I may drop a word here, in my perspective defending rap from a musical perspective is quite difficult and maybe even impossible, as I also think it's a very simple style of music. The thing is: not every music caters to people for the same reason, and not everybody listens to music for the same reason. While proggers usually listen to their music to find the details, the musicianship, to be amazed, I guess that usually people that hear hip-hop or rap are not reallt trying to be amazed and amazed at the compositional skills of the rapper. They may want to
a.) hear how the rapper can say a lot of rimes in a few minutes, and it takes some skills (not musical, again, other skills) to be able to actually rap fast and with coherence.
b) have a good beat to drive to, or to just dance, or do whatever they want. Seeing that the bass line is the focus in rap and hiphop, and knowing how low frequencies are the ones that  impact physically the most, going to specific areas of the brain, it's obvious it's useful musicto do certain things.
c) just have FUN. I guess we all agree that we don't listen to music for the same reason. The gyt that listens to hiphop and loves it is in no way musically inferior to the one who loves Alban Berg, because they are not looking for the same thing when they hear their music.
d) Also, i guess it's excellent music to show off your car stereo like many people do... (not that I respect them so muchTongue but hey, it's a free country).
 
So, why do we have to compare apples with oranges? That both rap and prog share the same artistic denomination, MUSIC, doesn't mean they are made with the same puropose in mind or that are enjoyed with the same purpose in mind.
 
 
but its the coolest when rap does cater to proggy taste,  just try Dalek (only if you like Kraut) or Wax Poetic (especially Istanbul) or Yesterdays New Quintet (one of Madlibs jazzy projects)
who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
Back to Top
WalterDigsTunes View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: September 11 2007
Location: SanDiegoTijuana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4373
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2008 at 00:07
My personal take on this:

Originally posted by MHDTV


1. Listen to Welcome To The Terrordrome
The first three seconds are great. But then, that's a stand-alone sample. I'm better off listening to the original song. The production's grit is okay, but the rapping turns me off.

2. You're not getting it. More than samples.
Its based on the samples. Stuff is added around the samples. Little of it reaches the stature or importance of the slice of music that's been purloined. It's like establishing a fine foundation but only building a tin shack above it.

3. Yes, the samples are the center. But he uses them in a very creative way, that very few people could use to the same effect. Sure a 7th grader could make a song like that. But it would be sh*t, right? A 3rd grader who can play the recorder can write a song in 5 minutes. It would be sh*t right? Goes both ways my friend.
Way to lower the age requirement while raising the standards of songcraft LOL


4. Just try and rap.
Look, I personally love Paul's Boutique. After the late 80s, however, it became impossible to build that sort of masterful collage. Songs have essentially become the same thing looped over and over and over again.

5. Honestly Public Enemy doesn't cater to a Prog fans tastes. Try Gang Starr or Labor Days by Aesop Rock. Massive Attack and Portishead are great Trip-Hop.
Trip-hop is the bane of my existence. Banality and repetition to the extreme.

6. Beat is slang for a song.
The street has reduced the worth of a song to the mere beat? Gadzooks!

7. You're attacking what you've heard of rap is. I'm defending what rap can be, and what I consider good rap to be. The potential of Hip Hop is limitless.
Nope. It's extremely limited. You can't do the sort of psychedelic free-for-all samplethon that bred Paul's Boutique or 3 Feet High and Rising. Getting the licensing for all that would be a nightmare and it'd be impossible to afford. We're stuck with the same repetitive sample with the same repetitive beat.



For the record, I own every Beastie Boys album, "Fear of a Black Planet" and Tone-Loc's "Loc-ed After Dark."
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Symphonic Prog Specialist

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17604
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2008 at 00:31
Originally posted by MHDTV

@Ivan:
1. Listen to Welcome To The Terrordrome
 
Are you talking about the 1989 single? , yep I heard it, not impressed me a bit,
 
2. You're not getting it. More than samples.
 
That's the problem, the samples are the only good thing.

3. Yes, the samples are the center. But he uses them in a very creative way, that very few people could use to the same effect. Sure a 7th grader could make a song like that. But it would be sh*t, right? A 3rd grader who can play the recorder can write a song in 5 minutes. It would be sh*t right? Goes both ways my friend.
 
Well, the center is from a real artist, a rapper only adds the paraphernalia.
 
BTW: Get STYX and the Cleveland Youth Orxchestra, you will see what a bunch o 5th, 6th and 7th graders whon take music seriously can do. Greg Lake wrote Lucky man as a fun song when he was 12.

4. Just try and rap.
 
I can't speak fast.

5. Honestly Public Enemy doesn't cater to a Prog fans tastes. Try Gang Starr or Labor Days by Aesop Rock. Massive Attack and Portishead are great Trip-Hop.
 
I only heard Massive Attack and Aesop Rock, again, not slightly impressed.
 
Just got all the availlable samples of Gang Starr's "Step in the Arena", including Name Tag, Form of Intellect and Preciselly the Right Rhyme, you don0't want to know my opinion, just will say that to me they sound exactly as Will Smith.

6. Beat is slang for a song.
 
The slang term has an ethymology, beat comes from a drum hit, so obviously, it priorizes the rhythm over everything.

7. You're attacking what you've heard of rap is. I'm defending what rap can be, and what I consider good rap to be. The potential of Hip Hop is limitless.
 
Call me when it reaches it's potential.
 
Iván
 
 
Back to Top
Avantgardehead View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: December 29 2006
Location: Dublin, OH, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1170
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2008 at 03:40
Dalek is pretty interesting. I like the ambiance and the greater focus on instrumentation, but the vocals just kill it (even though they are way better than the usual mess).
http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
Back to Top
Trademark View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1009
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2008 at 13:03
I want to take a minute or two to respond to Mr. T's excellent observations here.  There is , of course, a great deal of truth in what was said in this post and the parts of I disagree with are minor.  Of course different people have different expectation and "goals" when listening to music.  The thing that is at issue (one of several) in this discussion is whether or not rap can be looked at in equal terms to progressive rock. This has been a major part of the recent pages of this thread's complaint and is implied in the hostile opening post.  In this argument a musical defense of rap is absolutely required in order for the complainant to make his case.

Rap is a juvenile form of music, and in and of itself there is nothing wrong with that at all.  I liked the juvenile popular music of my own time and still have a soft spot for  Slade, Foghat, and Black Oak Arkansas, but I make no claim that they could rise to the level of musicianship and yes, creativity, that is common to much Prog rock.  It was/is simple, juvenile music and cannot be seen otherwise, though I would not have been able to see that at the time.  I listened to that music when I was the age of the thread starter (if that is an accurate age) and I loved it, ate, drank, and slept it.  Later when I was 19 or 20 I discovered Genesis and found the music that truly suited my own personal needs for musical expression, attention to compositional detail, and quality of musicianship.  I found the music that would hold up to scrutiny for the rest of my life, and which led me to more and more music of even higher levels of artistry in the world of classical music.  Not everyone needs what I need from music, and simpler juvenile music may be all they ever need or want, but that does not change the status of that music.  It is still simple and juvenile.

It is because of Tony Banks, Rick Wakeman, & Kerry Minnear that I decided to study music and make it my life's vocation.  Jim Dandy Mangrum, Noddy Holder, and Lonesome Dave Peverett were not factors in that decision.  No one I have encountered ever went into formal music study as a result of listening to 50 Cent.  They do, however, want to take a quickie course in music technology so that they can become "Hip Hop Pudusas" and make millions overnight.  Having undertaken a life-long study of music (classical & all other genres) I can state with no hesitation that prog rock comes far closer to the ideals of true musicianship than rap does and this, also, has been part of the arguments made throughout this thread.

This brings the age element into play.  I do not imply that juvenile music is bad music, only that juvenile music is not the music that will satisfy anyone for a lifetime.  Unfortunately, the thread starter does not have the perspective gained from real life experience to understand this fact.  If his stated age is accurate, the chemical development of his brain in the areas of logical thought and perception are close to 6 years away from being complete.  There's a reason you can't vote until you're 18.  They don't call it the "age of reason" for nothing.

He's found something he loves and seeks to elevate it beyond it's rightful status (musically) simply because he loves it so much and has little true knowledge of other music to compare it to.  Time and a great deal more music will likely correct this impetuous and foolish attitude towards rap music.  He may always harbour a soft spot for it as I do for the groups I mentioned above, but if he continues to truly NEED great music in his life he WILL move past rap and see it for what it truly is in any and all of its forms; juvenile music.  It would be the same as arguing that quality of film-making in "Barney" (or any Will Ferrel movie) is equivalent to that of "No Country for Old Men" , "The Beautiful Mind" or other great academy award winning films. Just because you like it (or because it is all that you are capable of understanding) does not put it at the same level as other, more advanced, works in the same field.  "Thomas The Tank Engine" is not "War & Peace."   Rap is the musical equivalent of "Barney with Bling".



Edited by Trademark - April 24 2008 at 13:40
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 151617

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.69
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.156 seconds.