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Topic ClosedDÜN is Zeuhl ? Then what is DÜN ? What is Zeuhl ?

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debrewguy View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: DÜN is Zeuhl ? Then what is DÜN ? What is Zeuhl ?
    Posted: March 09 2008 at 03:50
Listening to Dun. Remembering Chantraine's new thread on Belgian Chamber Prog. Thinking about FMPM and how Univers Zero is RIO/Avant-Garde. I'm thinking Dun is classified Zeuhl. Thinking ... Zeuhl ??? ... 'Cause I don't like Magma from the half dozen songs I've heard. Dun is Zeuhl ? Hmmm ... I like UZ ... UZ is RIO ... I like Dun ... Dun seems an electric cousin to UZ. From France.

Am I missing out on other groups that may not fit their genres' stereotype(s) ?
(i.e. is there Zeuhl without the Magna influence; are RIO/Avant-Garde groups really comparable to each other or can they also be affixed with a tag of their own sub-G ... oh - oh  a subgenre nightmare ...)
 Or to the point  - If Dun is Zeuhl, what other Zeuhl is out there that I may like if I like Dun ?
Or to misquote ol' Honest Abe ... Lincoln, that is - If this is stuff I like, what other stuff would I like if this is stuff I like ... Please no left field recs. 
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2008 at 03:55
Eider Stellaire don't really sound like Magma to me, and they're classified as Zeuhl. Excellent, especially their first. Check them out if you can find them; they're out of print, if I recall correctly, but I suppose finding them on a blog should be understandable in this situation (the bandleader refuses a proper reissue).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2008 at 05:17

What makes Dun Zeuhl is the throbbing bass and distinct piano sound, but they would comfortably fit in RIO/Avant as well. Some UZ albums feature the characteristic Zeuhl bass sound, but a lot of their music has nothing in common with Zeuhl, so they're better for RIO/Avant, I think.

As Chameleon mentioned, Eider Stellaire is good, and I would also recommend Eskaton. They have the zeuhl bass and keyboards, but the vocals are much more restrained than those in Magma. Neither are as crazy as Dun, though. LOL


Edited by Sckxyss - March 09 2008 at 05:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2008 at 06:24
Univers Zero and Art Zoyd both toured with Magma in the 70s. Daniel Denis even played onstage with Magma a few times, and both bands have had their Zeuhl moments. However, as stated elsewhere, the majority of their work fits better into RIO/Avant prog.
If you like Dun you might also enjoy Potemkine, another great but largely forgotten Magma influenced band from the 70s.
'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2008 at 06:43
Dün is Zeuhl, but only just. Having them in Avant-Prog would work well too, especially since they almost joined RIO.

Potemkine is more conventional jazz-rock than Zeuhl in my opinion, but they were good. Though I think the CD-reissues of their albums are out of print now, so it might be hard to get hold of their stuff.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2008 at 09:25
Personally I think Dün fits very well in Zeuhl, another band that I enjoy is Vortex which is placed in RIO, but also has that classical fusion sound that is part of some Magma and general Zeuhl works.
 
Anyway for me both genres are closely linked, I think partially that it's a geographycal element, I noticed a lot of bands from the France region to be in Zeuhl and Rio (also including Belgium and Schwitzerland), While USA RIO and Swedish is musically very different from what was going on in France.
 
But I'm not an expert, so my ideas are based on some 15 bands I know.
 
BTW. Japanes Zeuhl is pretty cool to.
Koenjihyakkei and Ruins are pretty good.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2008 at 10:17
I would also say that DÜN is definitely Zeuhl. It's just a lot more accessible than Magma. A recommendation I can make for you is Jean-Paul Prat. His album "Masal" may not be classified as Zeuhl, but it is very Zeuhl influenced. It's more accessible than "Eros," but still very complex.
a.k.a. H.T.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2008 at 10:52
O.K.
 
I have UZ Heresie and I think the best definition for it is modern classic.
I must say I never understood the sub-genring here. For me Samla mammas manna are more close to gong or soft machine than to Henry cow or UZ. I strongly feel that Zeul is a french avant-garde and again as mentioned here Eskaton and Potemkine are much more close to Jazz than to Magma.
 
However I will give 2 recommendations to you :
 
1. Try Happy familly's Tosco - Japanese Zeul which is the closest to Dun's Eros that I've heared.
2. PM Avestin and ask him about that. He's a real expert and from my experience he will gladly advise you.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2008 at 11:49
Originally posted by omri omri wrote:

O.K.
 
I have UZ Heresie and I think the best definition for it is modern classic.
I must say I never understood the sub-genring here. For me Samla mammas manna are more close to gong or soft machine than to Henry cow or UZ. I strongly feel that Zeul is a french avant-garde and again as mentioned here Eskaton and Potemkine are much more close to Jazz than to Magma.
 
However I will give 2 recommendations to you :
 
1. Try Happy familly's Tosco - Japanese Zeul which is the closest to Dun's Eros that I've heared.
2. PM Avestin and ask him about that. He's a real expert and from my experience he will gladly advise you.
 
Sammla Mammas Manna - or to be more precise Zammla Zammaz Manna (which they became in 1976) - were one of the original Rock In Opposition bands which is why they're included in RIO/Avant.
 
Magma was heavily influenced by jazz, which was more obvious on their first album than subsequently. Christian Vander has always acknowledged his debt to John Coltrane, and his piano playing is very much in McCoy Tyner's style. Most Zeuhl bands were similarly jazz tinged to a greater or lesser extent. There was always a strong link between Magma and the French avant garde and jazz fusion scenes; after all, they played on the same circuit and a stint in Magma was almost obligatory for any adventurous French musician at the time.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2008 at 17:55
Originally posted by omri omri wrote:

O.K.
 
I have UZ Heresie and I think the best definition for it is modern classic.
I must say I never understood the sub-genring here. For me Samla mammas manna are more close to gong or soft machine than to Henry cow or UZ.
 
 
 
 
Mind you that UZ also were one of the original RIO bands, therefore considered RIO. But along with Art Zoyd, UZ was HEAVILY influenced by modern classical music and avant-garde. Same with SMM, as Chris said they were one of the original RIO bands, therefore they should be included in that genre, although they are more Jazz-Rock styled really, but they have their avantgarde moments as well, especially during their Zamla Mammaz Manna periodSmile
RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2008 at 05:05

To Syzygy and Bj1,

If I understood right you are both talking of historycal reasons to classify a band. I do not argue with that. I strongly feel that all this classification is not very helpfull when one tries to understand what kind of music a certain band plays. Therefore the only reason to classify is not obtained. If so, we better live without it.

omri
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2008 at 09:52

You've got a good point there, but Univers Zero still is an avant-garde prog band, therefore they should remain where they areTongue

As for SMM, they stay in RIO for their ZMM connection (essentially the same band, only with a different guitarist) which was far more avant than SMM. I know this might sound somewhat unfair though.
RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2008 at 10:00
Well the first problem here is that you don't like Magma. Angry GET ON THAT.

In hopes of giving you recommendations for further Magma investigation, what Magma album(s) have you heard? Or did you just illegally download scattered songs? Because if it's the latter, you probably got a number of songs that don't sound right out of context, or that aren't their stronger outputs.

I would recommend Eskaton, Eider Stellaire, Guapo, Bondage Fruit, Zao, Weidorje, and Univeria Zekt, because they're all great, but Zeuhl is really all about Magma. You should try them again.

Just trying to help you like the best band ever. Tongue


Edited by Shakespeare - March 10 2008 at 10:07
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2008 at 10:15
Originally posted by Shakespeare Shakespeare wrote:



Just trying to help you like the best band ever. Tongue
 
 
Paris likes'em, so he should as wellWinkLOL
RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2008 at 17:59
Originally posted by omri omri wrote:

Eskaton and Potemkine are much more close to Jazz than to Magma.


Eskaton sounds very much like Magma in my opinion... Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2008 at 18:13
Nah, I agree with Omri; a lot of the non-Magma zeuhl bands sometimes sound special but often revert to jazz-funk mode.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2008 at 09:43
Thankyou Laplace.
 
I only have 2 Magmas (Udu wudu and Kontarkosz) and 2 Eskatons (4 visions and Fiction) but it is quite clear to me that Magma is much more dark and more classic oriented (it sounds in parts like opera to my ears). However I love them all (and yes, I definitely need more Magma albums).
omri
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2008 at 13:30
^ You definitely need Magma's MDK and Live Hhai as well as Eskaton's Ardeur (my favourite Eskaton album).

As to the topic-starter, I strongly second Vortex.  That's the first album that came to mind when I saw this, for someone who likes Dun and UZ (and Present, though not Zeuhl).

I'll also second Jean-Paul Prat's Masal.  Great album.

One can like lots of Zeuhl without being into Magma (I like all Zeuhl).  Really, Magma, has a lot of variety, so I'm sure that there would be music there that you would like. 

I wouldn't really suggest Koenjihyakkei to someone who doesn't like Magma.

Weidorje has been suggested, so I'd also mention that Paga might be worth a shot if you like that.

Archaia, though not a favourite of mine, might be a good one to try.  I really love Shub-Niggurath and Zao, but not sure about recommending those.  Guapo, don't know that you'd like that.  Super Freego is super fun, but...

A Zeuhl related album I like muchly is Jean-Philippe Goude and Olivier Cole's Jeunnes Annes.  And if you can find samples, I'd check out Michael Altmayer's Troll.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2008 at 19:08
Well it may sound surprising, but Magma are one of the few Zeuhl bands I don't know that well, I just for some reason have yet to give them the listen they deserve.

However, as Logan says, Live Hhai is fantastic, but even better still, is Retrospektiw 1 & 2 which contains the stunning Theusz Haamtahk.

As for other recommendations, well I know you love your jazz and especially Soft Machine, so I'd suggest a band like Speed Limit, which actually isn't really that Zeuhl-like, but features two former Magmaites.

Again, for more jazz-tinged or chamber-zeuhl, definitely check out bands like Weidorje, Zao and Eider Stellaire.  For the chamber-zeuhl sound, try Shub-Niggurath.

For a slightly comedic disco-Zeuhl, try Zartong.   Actually, they're not that bad, but they're quite different too.

Guapo I would say are more avant-prog-doom-metal, if such a thing exists.  They're bloody brilliant though.

Now, if you want fuzz-bass, but not in a Zeuhl-fashion, you simply cannot go wrong with Hugh Hopper's albums, but you knew that already, I suspect.

He's probably the best non-Zeuhl fuzz-bassist around... second prize goes to Fred Chalinor of Caveman Shoestore and Hughscore.


Edited by James - March 12 2008 at 19:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2008 at 07:56
I'm a total Zeuhl/RIO neophyte, but from what I can tell from first impressions, things which are designated as RIO for *stylistic* reasons (as opposed to purely historical/charter-signing reasons... the original RIO roster looks to be quite a broad church stylistically!) come across as being more *cerebral* and serious-sounding somehow than things that are designated Zeuhl.  Zeuhl seems to have a more 'physical' feel to it - all that bass and repeating rhythms etc.  I can't imagine dancing around my kitchen to the likes of Henry Cow, for example, but just picture me throwing a shape or two to the accompaniment of Magma! ^_^

Or maybe I'm totally wrong!  This seems to be a topic of endless debate...  Anyway, the 'grey area' between Zeuhl and RIO looks to be my main musical destination for the foreseeable future!  You should see my shopping list... ;-)

I'm particularly curious about Dün - fingers crossed I have tracked down a copy of Eros on CD - can't wait for it to arrive!!  I've loved the snippets I've heard of it so far - the percussion sounds gorgeous.
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