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DJPuffyLemon View Drop Down

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Topic: Transatlantic Virus
Posted: March 31 2008 at 18:27

There's a few bands these days that have what I call the Transatlantic Virus so-called because Transatlantic is a compilation of members of Spock's Beard, The Flower Kings, and Marillion, all of whom have this problem (Dream Theater occasionally does this too but in a different way, I'll get to that later.)

Spock's Beard and The Flower Kings have many influences with 70s classic era prog rock. Unfortunately, it really sounds like they have no ideas of their own. Don't get me wrong, the bands have a unique edge on their sound but they have too many pop songs (which sounds like an attempt to commercialize) and many prog songs don't have unique arrangements, at least, SB doesn't I haven't heard as much Flower Kings as I'd like.

Marillion, which started out as a very innovative neo-prog band, has started to sound like they have this problem too. Especially with Marbles, which has many pop songs and really doesn't have any new ideas. Dream Theater is a bit different because they are metal, but lately (with Systematic Chaos) it sounds like they have started to immitate the bands that immitate the sound they've themselves created. Again, it doesn't appy as much to DT but they're also running out of ideas and trying to become more commercialized.

So...what you guys think?

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Posted: March 31 2008 at 19:21

well I haven't heard all the bands you've mentioned all except for Transatlsntic and DT. As for DT I kind of did noticed it. I didn't heard any bright ideas from Systematic Chaos. Though I did liked the album I got tired of it really fast unlike their previous albums due to this "commercialization".

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sean

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Posted: March 31 2008 at 19:46

the only two of those you've mentioned that I've heard are Transatlantic and DT. I do agree that a lot of the time Transatlantic sounds a bit too similar to their 70's idols, and I have also noticed with DT's later albums that they have taken more and more to doing the same. With regards to DT it has been particularly irritating because I always notice random bits of their songs which are taken from songs by other bands, such as in "Peruvian Skies" where they use "Have a Cigar" by Pink Floyd, "Never Enough" and "Prophets of War", which seem to be taken from "Stockholm Syndrome" and "Take a Bow" by Muse, and many others where it seems they are trying too hard to copy their idols.
I did enjoy Systematic Chaos, but it's charm wore out quickly because it did feel rather derivative and stagnant.

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Posted: March 31 2008 at 20:35

Marillion - Marbles without any (new) ideas? Have you ever listened to Ocean Cloud or The Invisible Man?? Are those pop songs??? Marillion is still going strong, live I cannot think of a better band (I saw them twice the last year) allthough their album Somewhere Else was not nearly as good as Marbles. But I bet they'll be back this year with a killer (double) album....(and yes, I'm a fanboy of that band...)...So...I think that virus has not hit them as hard as you say here...(I also think Transatlantic has some great tracks, and isn't nearly as dull as you make it seem here...)

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Posted: March 31 2008 at 21:29

Listen to enough music, and you'll find similarities (conscious or not) abound. Le Orme or Pfm have a song that sounds like Pink Floyd borrowed bits of it for Brain Damage, at least the acoustic guitar parts. But I've yet to see any mention of Floyd having heard of either band while they were doing live at Pompeii .
It can be annoying at times, but (to repeat myself ad nauseum) it still comes down to your liking the music or not. How many RPI keyboard trios sound like ELP ? But if you, or in my case, had never heard ELP before listening to the Italian bands, would your opinion change any if you had some RPI bands you loved.

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el böthy

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Posted: March 31 2008 at 21:47

DJPuffyLemon wrote:

very innovative neo-prog band

Isnt innovative and neo-prog an oxymoron? Geek

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Moatilliatta View Drop Down

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Posted: April 01 2008 at 01:46

What I think is that too many prog fans try to find fault in modern prog bands. Why, I am still not sure. It has gotten quite ridiculous though.

Now, let's tackle these points. First of all, Spock's Beard and The Flower Kings have had plenty of their own ideas and/or write too many pop songs. You will admit that they have a unique edge to their sound, which is good, and that is always one of the points of contention there. Structurally and sonically I think both bands have managed to stand out among the mass of new prog bands who carry the strong 70s influence. There are so many "underground" modern prog bands that have the 70s sound too, but why is it that The Flower Kings and Spock's Beard have managed to get popular and not those other bands? I'm sure that at least for a large amount of those bands the problem is that they haven't been able to innovate.

Now, the bands write too many pop songs? If it's true for The Flower Kings, Spock's Beard and Marillion, it's true for Genesis, Kansas, Rush, etc. The Flower Kings have made 10 albums. By this point in Genesis' career they turned almost completely pop. The Flower Kings are still doing their thing and trying to find new ways to do it.

And as far as copying other sounds, it's not like any of the bands (DT namely, since this is what you said regarding them) have completely changed their sound to whatever. They are just experimenting with new ideas or influences. Even if the influences are obvious, they are still clearly being made by the band who wrote the song. There is nothing wrong with trying something out. And even if it's not the most original, it can still be a great song.

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Posted: April 01 2008 at 02:25

I think that first you have to think about which classic bands you can compare the bands you mention to. Of course a band like Spock's Beard doesn't write as unique music as Van der Graaf Generator did. But would I hold that against them? No. I'll agree that Spock's Beard have a strong AOR influence ... but then again that can also be said for Kansas. They also put some plain pop songs on their later albums ... Genesis did that as well.

About DT: Yes, I think that they appear to be stuck in a rut ... but I would never call Octavarium and Systematic Chaos bad albums, rather the reverse. Of course if you don't "dig" their musicianship and are put off by their tendency to "emulate" other artists, then you won't enjoy them very much, and I would not recommend them as an introduction to DT.

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Posted: April 01 2008 at 02:49

Oh, just wait till E-Dub sees this.

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Posted: April 01 2008 at 03:22

On Marbles I assume you're refering to You're Gone, Don't Hurt Yourself and Fantastic Place. Yes these songs aren't that proggy but the others are, plus the " commercial " songs are awesome. If you're going to find fault with Marillion then it should be with Somewhere Else.

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Posted: April 01 2008 at 04:03

Soul Dreamer wrote:

Marillion - Marbles without any (new) ideas? Have you ever listened to Ocean Cloud or The Invisible Man?? Are those pop songs???

Speaking personally, I find the original premise of this thread over simplistic and the thread title unfortunate. It would be helpful if the specific tracks and albums being referred to by TFK and SB could be mentioned.

That said, it was perhaps significant that Marillion chose to omit "Ocean cloud", their most prog track in years, from the commercially available single disc version of "Marbles". If was only obtainable on the two disc version sold through their website.

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Posted: April 01 2008 at 04:17

el böthy wrote:

DJPuffyLemon wrote:

very innovative neo-prog band

Isnt innovative and neo-prog an oxymoron? Geek

Yes, it's two seemingly contradictory words.

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toolis

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Posted: April 01 2008 at 08:56

you can't play prog and not sound at all like "older" prog and not all bands can invent the wheel with every release. that's not the point...

however, neither is ripping off... there's no virus there, though... i remember reading to interviews and the question was: "do you know that many fans claim you sound alot like Genesis?", and the artist was like "wow, that's a great compliment! Genesis are one of our greatest influences!!"...

DT used to do it alot better plus they were innovative and now they're not.. however, it's really important that new fans discover all this 70's prog music via theirs... Marillion's debut sounds like Genesis alot but all of us praised it and we should cause it's awesome... same goes with TFK and SB...

personally, apart from Tool and TMV, i haven't listened to any genuinely unique new sound and i don't sweat about it.. as long as it's good music, it's ok...

Edited by toolis - April 01 2008 at 08:58

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BaldJean

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Posted: April 01 2008 at 09:13

DJPuffyLemon wrote:

I personally think that since we are talking of a virus we should speak of influenzas instead of influences LOL

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Posted: April 01 2008 at 10:41

All the bands you have mentioned have all been influenced by 70's bands to an extent but it's a bit unfair to say they don't have any ideas of their own....but then you say they have a unique edge to their sound which sounds kind of contradictory. In the case of Spock's Beard in particular I would agree they have written many commercial tunes, even more so since Morse left but they still retain enough a Prog edge to keep them interesting.

I don't think the same can be said of The Flower Kings though, although recently Parradox Hotel comprised of shorter songs they aren't exactly Pop songs and they have recently returned with their most Symphonic album in years with 4 of the 6 tracks over 13 minutes long, one is actually 26 minutes.

Dream Theater have treading water a bit lately but still managed to produce consistantly enjoyable albums, if not classics lately. They're certainly not going down a more commercial road though; the nearest they got to that was when they bowed to record company pressure for their Falling Into Infinity album 10 years back.

Can't really speak for Marillion though as I've not bought too much by them sice the Fish years.

CCVP

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Posted: April 01 2008 at 15:14

DJPuffyLemon wrote:

So...what you guys think?

I think that you got it by the wrong approach. Instead of saying that this is the "Transatlantic Syndrome", you should call it "damn, we are too tired and way too old to write something interesting, so lets destroy everything we already did and make some horrible music".

this virus is wildly spread in musical business. Look at Metallica, Iron Maiden, SB (after Morse's departure), Marillion (after Fish's departure), DT (after they wanted to make a lot money and have poser fans instead of not so much money and some few tr00 hardcore fans). In the Flower Kings case, i disagree. Stolt keep making his music as he always did but with more freedom to write whatever he wants to (since he rules over the FK like God itself over the universe), so if there are more pop rock, its because he is writing more about what he also likes and not what the audience likes. I feel that Stolt is right now doing this: "i am going to record this album. if it sells ok and if it don't ok also, cuz i am doing what i want"

Edited by CCVP - April 01 2008 at 17:00

chessman

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Posted: April 01 2008 at 17:00

If it's a virus they've got, I wish I'd got it too! Transatlantic have recorded two top notch albums, especially the debut. And yes, they do show their influences on them, influences that for me are a good thing.

As regards the 'parent' bands, well, I love The Flower Kings; they are my second favourite band of all time, just, and only just, behind Genesis. Top class musicianship and songwriting is their forte. And yes they do sound like Yes especially at times; for me, that's a bonus!

Spock's Beard, though I haven't heard as much by them, have also produced some great music, especially on their earlier albums, when Neal Morse was with them. Again, great influences from the seventies.

Marillion have produced some superb music, and the odd album that has been less than impressive. Somewhere Else is in fact quite woeful in places. But Marbles is maybe my favourite album by them, with some great atmospheric, melodic music on it.

Only Dream Theater leave me cold. Not my type of music, though I can appreciate their musicianship.

I was a big prog fan in the seventies, but I firmly believe a lot of today's bands are producing better music than ever. Of course, the argument will always be 'without those seventies bands a lot of today's bands wouldn't exist'.

I don't necessarily believe that's true. I think some of today's bands would have invented the genre themselves if it wasn't already around.

Anyway, as a fan of seventies music, I still like to hear that type of thing now, whether it's from old bands or new bands.

The alternative is bands like Sigur Ros and Radiohead, both of which I find vastly overrated and under talented.

I appreciate others like them, but they are not for me. Give me something that sounds old anyday!

CCVP

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Posted: April 01 2008 at 17:11

chessman wrote:

I appreciate others like them, but they are not for me. Give me something that sounds old anyday!

Try talking to my grand grandmother. She is almost 100 and sound as old as hell. LOL

DJPuffyLemon View Drop Down

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Posted: April 01 2008 at 17:56

sean wrote:

I do agree that a lot of the time Transatlantic sounds a bit too similar to their 70's idols,

it seems they are trying too hard to copy their idols.

well see the members of DT have always liked having throwbacks to their influences. and they've kept from sounding too much like them until lately, i think. as for transatlantic, its pretty much a throwback project, and even though the musicianship is top notch, the songs sound way too forced (SMTPe is okay, but Bridge Across Forever sounds way too manufactured.)

Soul Dreamer wrote:

Marillion - Marbles without any (new) ideas? Have you ever listened to Ocean Cloud or The Invisible Man?? Are those pop songs??? Marillion is still going strong, live I cannot think of a better band (I saw them twice the last year) allthough their album Somewhere Else was not nearly as good as Marbles. But I bet they'll be back this year with a killer (double) album....(and yes, I'm a fanboy of that band...)...So...I think that virus has not hit them as hard as you say here...(I also think Transatlantic has some great tracks, and isn't nearly as dull as you make it seem here...)

I'm not saying that its all pop songs, but its become very easy listening ambient sort of music...prove me wrong please, but I can't find Marbles having that much substance. I have relistened to the Invisible Man and Ocean Cloud, and those songs too sounded somewhat formulaic.

debrewguy wrote:

Listen to enough music, and you'll find similarities (conscious or not) abound.

Of course of course, and no that doesn't change whether Iike them or not, I actually like Transatlantic, Spock's Beard, Dream Theater, and Marillion (haven't heard enough of TFK so I can't comment fully). But with the other four bands, I'm running out of patience because they all without fail (yes, even marillion) are running out of ideas, which is natural given that most of these bands have around 8 or more albums.

el böthy wrote:

DJPuffyLemon wrote:

very innovative neo-prog band

Isnt innovative and neo-prog an oxymoron? Geek

is this a barb or do you have an actual point to make with this?

Moatilliatta wrote:

What I think is that too many prog fans try to find fault in modern prog bands. Why, I am still not sure. It has gotten quite ridiculous though.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to find fault in new bands, its just that occasionally, a band regardless of year, will be open to criticism. If you look into some of my previous posts you'll see that I find fault in Rush (an 80s band) and Genesis (70s band). So its pretty much everyone!

Moatilliatta wrote:

why is it that The Flower Kings and Spock's Beard have managed to get popular and not those other bands? I'm sure that at least for a large amount of those bands the problem is that they haven't been able to innovate.

The simple answer is that TFK and SB have talented instrumentalists, which is always a fast track to fame. The complicated answer (and by complex i mean debatable) is that yes, they have been able to innovate, you're right. And like I said, they have their own edge, but really, there's a difference between having an edge and having your own ideas. An example of the former: a cover song. You take someone else's idea and make it yours, but its not an original idea and if your entire repatoir consists of songs without ideas...then less power to you.

Moatilliatta wrote:

The Flower Kings are still doing their thing and trying to find new ways to do it.

There is nothing wrong with trying something out. And even if it's not the most original, it can still be a great song.

Point taken, and admittedly most of my judgment regarding the kings is taken from Stolt's Transatlantic work and Stardust We Are.

Nightfly wrote:

All the bands you have mentioned have all been influenced by 70's bands to an extent but it's a bit unfair to say they don't have any ideas of their own....but then you say they have a unique edge to their sound which sounds kind of contradictory. In the case of Spock's Beard in particular I would agree they have written many commercial tunes, even more so since Morse left but they still retain enough a Prog edge to keep them interesting.

its not contradictory, see above. also, the point is that by writing commericalized music, they aren't being true to themselves and they're making fake, forced, and just plain manufactured music.

Easy Livin wrote:

Unfortunate? Please elaborate. Also, refering to specific songs is just nitpicking and granted, every band can make songs which are exceptions to their rule, but these bands are now consistantly doing this.

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

About DT: Yes, I think that they appear to be stuck in a rut ... but I would never call Octavarium and Systematic Chaos bad albums, rather the reverse.

No, not bad albums at all....but not as good by far!

CCVP wrote:

I think that you got it by the wrong approach. Instead of saying that this is the "Transatlantic Syndrome", you should call it "damn, we are too tired and way too old to write something interesting, so lets destroy everything we already did and make some horrible music".

In the Flower Kings case, i disagree. Stolt keep making his music as he always did but with more freedom to write whatever he wants to

Dude you are like the first to agree.

Important point with the kings. I don't know about them so I'll take your word for it and made power to them if that's what's up.

chessman wrote:

I firmly believe a lot of today's bands are producing better music than ever. Of course, the argument will always be 'without those seventies bands a lot of today's bands wouldn't exist'.

I don't necessarily believe that's true. I think some of today's bands would have invented the genre themselves if it wasn't already around.

Anyway, as a fan of seventies music, I still like to hear that type of thing now, whether it's from old bands or new bands.

I agree, people are making better music and reaching for higher peaks. The thing is, if I want to listen to 70s sounding music, I'll listen to 70s music. New music should sounds different (progress if you will) otherwise...what's the point?

chessman wrote:

The alternative is bands like Sigur Ros and Radiohead, both of which I find vastly overrated and under talented.

Actually, Sigur Ros' Takk... is an amazing album. () is a little too empty...but fans adore them. sometimes, less is more. WHile I don't like Radiohead, they do have some good compositions, but I agree that they are very overrated. But these bands focus on texture and layered music rather than virtuousic instrumentals, which is what 70s music like Yes was all about....so obviously it wouldn't be your thing!

Edited by DJPuffyLemon - April 01 2008 at 18:10

CCVP

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Posted: April 01 2008 at 19:47

DJPuffyLemon wrote:

CCVP wrote:

Dude you are like the first to agree.

Important point with the kings. I don't know about them so I'll take your word for it and made power to them if that's what's up.

Maybe its because i am the only one here that shares your view of things that, after a wile (in DT's case that have been 20 years for Christ sake, and here i mean that they have been making good albums until Octavarium, but i really believe that Systematic was some kind of "accident"), people just run out of ideas and then go to some side that may be unwanted by the fans (like Metallica sadly did Cry

).

In Marillion's case i think that the band is incredible mediocre without Fish and Fish's solo career is not that good also, in the matter of making masterpieces like he did back in the 80's.

Another thing: i really think that bridge across forever is better (please read here more balanced and "complete") than stmpe. All of the above is a masterpiece for itself, but the rest of the album just ruined it from being a masterpiece Cry

. Bridge across forever album is not as mindblowing as stmpe's all of the above, but the balance to me puts bridge across forever above all of the above.