| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Jared 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 06 2005
Location: Hereford, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 17532
|
 Posted: May 16 2008 at 13:04 |
 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
If I knew this, I wouldn't started the thread:
Imperialism, Vietnam, Phoil Collins, etc, all of them have nothing to do here, this is a poll about STYX tracks, that's all.
Iván |
very well said, Ivan.... 
just what I have been thinking...there are a few 'contributors' to this thread who frankly ought to re-evaluate their PA priorities... 
earlier on in this thread, I was going to compliment people on what a refreshing change it has been to have positive, constructive discussion on Styx appreciation, as in the past, Styx particularly have come in for quite a bit of unnecessary bashing on this forum....
but of course, it doesn't ever seam to be able to stay like that, does it? someone just has to start bashing America, or intruduce controvertial global political/ religious issues which have absolutely nothing to do with the original subject, and only serve to leave a bad taste in the mouth...
...I don't know how the rest of you feel, but I for one am getting a bit fed up of it all.... 
|
|
Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson
|
 |
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
|
Posted: May 16 2008 at 12:03 |
If I knew this, I wouldn't started the thread:
Imperialism, Vietnam, Phoil Collins, etc, all of them have nothing to do here, this is a poll about STYX tracks, that's all.
Iván
|
|
|
|
Cesar Inca
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 19 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 4888
|
Posted: May 16 2008 at 10:20 |
ClassicRocker wrote:
Dr. Prog wrote:
jimmy_row wrote:
ClassicRocker wrote:
Cesar Inca wrote:
Very emotional song about a political issue: America, stop being so imperalist because that won't lead you to greatness. If you want to be great again, stick to the dreams of freedom that gave you birth in the first place and stop being imperialist. That will help to solve the country's internal problems, the most important and urgent ones.
Kind regards. |
I don't want to get into a political argument here, but "imperialist"? Are you sure about that? I wasn't aware we had an American Empire. For clarification, are you referring to the song's meaning or your own opinion?
oh and, erm, "Styx rox!" and such...
|
well politics aren't the issue here anyway, it's the writer's intention. I'm pretty sure DeYoung has said that the song was a metaphor between a man's love for this woman, and what was going on with the country and the world. it was the bicentennial and Dennis was reflecting on what had happened to the dream, "but somehow you've changed"...
"Red, white, and blue..." that's a clear reference; the big deal was American supported militias in South America and the Dirty Wars around the time Suite Madame Blue was written. |
not to mention a little debacle called Vietnam....... |
Sorry guys, i wasn't thinking that far back. Truly I was considering only a modern (last 5 years) context when reading Cesar's response. (Please don't carry on about Iraq now)
It was my mistake I suppose in interpretation; I'm also not an expert on imperialism beyond that of the Europeans (my AP US history class only reached the 1950s to boot).
Anyways, I have a small issue with it when people are talking about the actions of a government, and instead address their criticism to the nation/population as a whole, as I felt Cesar did. This gives the impression that Cesar may think that each person who lives in the US, including myself, is a supporter of imperialism.
|
Now I'm a bit angry, to tell you truth, although I suspect my anger won't last too long.
Anyway... WHERE DID I SAY THAT I "THINK THAT EACH PERSON WHO LIVES IN THE USA... ETC. ETC."? WHERE IS THAT LINE AND IN WHICH POST? WHERE?
|
|
Cesar Inca
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 19 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 4888
|
Posted: May 16 2008 at 10:09 |
ClassicRocker wrote:
Cesar Inca wrote:
Very emotional song about a political issue: America, stop being so imperalist because that won't lead you to greatness. If you want to be great again, stick to the dreams of freedom that gave you birth in the first place and stop being imperialist. That will help to solve the country's internal problems, the most important and urgent ones.
Kind regards. |
I don't want to get into a political argument here, but "imperialist"? Are you sure about that? I wasn't aware we had an American Empire. For clarification, are you referring to the song's meaning or your own opinion?
oh and, erm, "Styx rox!" and such...
|
Beyond the fact of what I think about this sort of detail, I was just stating my interpretation of the lyrics to 'Suite Madame Blue'. I want to make it clear that I think that this is a very patriotic song, a statement of patriotic self-criticism as Socrates did from the philosopher's point of view in Ancient Athens.
The Vietnam thing was a major reference for those Americans who felt that worldwide political expansion wasn't the way while unemployment, unequity and public health were still issues unsolved in the own country. I regard the line "once long ago, a word from your lips and the world turned around" refers to the fatc that the USA used to be a very inspirational country: it achieved its independence before the victory of antu-monarchists in France, it established a multi-state nation that eventually served as some sort of model for many European democratic countries, and the USA was also the country where most of the the anti-slavery, anti-sexism and pro-labor movements began. It was very pionerring in terms of defending the ideals of freedom and equity in the area of ideas. DeYoung seems to express his total disappointment at the way the USA had managed its international affairs from the 50s onward (Korea onward). I feel that's where the allusions to Madame Blue's vanity come in.
Definitely, the last lines seem to me like a claim to stop with this line of work in international politics and start a new one, more faithful to the original spirit that had given birth to teh USA in the first place. These lyrics don't match the poetry of Hammill nor the deep imagery of Kery Livgren, but they definitely are clever, full of allusions. I hope my interpretation does hit some mark along the way. To put an European example, Spain is another country that has had a long history of self-criticism through intellectuals and artists during the time of its imperial decline.
Once again, this is my interpetation of DeYoung's concerns in these lyrics. I'm not saying I'm agreeing (alghouth I might) - this is not the subject. 
And just in case, I'm not Anti-American or something, I'm not "anti-any-country". I disagree with individual people  , not with the nations they were born in. 
All in all, my all-time fave STYX song is an introspective one: 'Castle Walls'. It sets the ultimate connection between STYX' American essence and Britisn prog - much Yes and PF influence in this track, yet remaining true to the spirit of the band's signature sound.
Kind regards.
Edited by Cesar Inca - May 16 2008 at 10:31
|
|
debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
|
Posted: May 16 2008 at 07:55 |
akiko wrote:
it has to be Suite Madame Blue b/c of the same reason Cesar said. I agree with the term Imperialistic. Any nation that has as large a military presence abroad as at home, even in times of peace, is an Empire
|
England, France, Russia, Syria. ????? At times - Cuba, South Africa, India , China. ???? Of course, when so called imperialistic nation declines world insistence on Imperialistic nation to sacrifice its' young men for cause of importance to world, but not to imperialist nation, then imperialist nation derided as isolationist. translation DAMNED IF YOU DO, DAMNED IF YOU DON'T ! p.s. no i do not agree with Iraq (U.S.), Chad (France), Sudan (lack of African Union intervention & Chinese support of central gov't) , Lebanon (Iran & Syria) . I wish that someone had intervened in Rwanda. But why is it only the non african countries that are held responsible ? The West could have supplied the money & the logistical support, the african & hey why not, the Arab nations the cannon fodder.
|
|
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
|
|
ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
|
Posted: May 16 2008 at 03:13 |
Dr. Prog wrote:
jimmy_row wrote:
^ I don't know if they were trying to make money with that direction, it seems more like Lady was the first thing that actually got a response for them, so DeYoung began writing more like it because it is what he did well...unfortunately there wasn't a big US market for prog, so they did what was most acceptable. It's interesting that Kansas were able to stay "true" longer with the same circumstances...I think they pulled off the songwriting better and certainly with more consistency. The thing I like about Styx is that prior to Crystal Ball they didn't have to rely as much on synthesizers so you get a more down to earth sound. |
the response being that it sold well, and was a big hit, so obviously the record company is going to push for more of that kind of material. Plus, DeYoung at heart sees himself as a piano man crooner, a showtune kind of guy, as you can see from his solo career projects. People around here crucify Phil Collins for one tenth of the kind of commercial sins that people like Dennis DeYoung have committed over the years.
|
While I'm all for crucifying DeYoung, Phil has sinned much more.
|
|
ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
|
Posted: May 16 2008 at 03:10 |
My contribution to this poll was sadly hit by the recent hacker. I responded to a poster who mentioned that The Angry Young Man was his introduction to Styx and still his favorite. I replied that it was my introduction to Styx as well, but I later realized that Sing for the Day was a much better composition. I finished by stating that if you owned Equinox, Pieces of Eight and a greatest hits compilation (not the first one) then you knew all of Styx that you needed to know.
My vote for Sing for the Day is in the other category, because I either didn't see that option or it was added after the hack.
|
|
Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
|
Posted: May 16 2008 at 00:44 |
jimmy_row wrote:
^ I don't know if they were trying to make money with that direction, it seems more like Lady was the first thing that actually got a response for them, so DeYoung began writing more like it because it is what he did well...unfortunately there wasn't a big US market for prog, so they did what was most acceptable. It's interesting that Kansas were able to stay "true" longer with the same circumstances...I think they pulled off the songwriting better and certainly with more consistency. The thing I like about Styx is that prior to Crystal Ball they didn't have to rely as much on synthesizers so you get a more down to earth sound. |
the response being that it sold well, and was a big hit, so obviously the record company is going to push for more of that kind of material. Plus, DeYoung at heart sees himself as a piano man crooner, a showtune kind of guy, as you can see from his solo career projects. People around here crucify Phil Collins for one tenth of the kind of commercial sins that people like Dennis DeYoung have committed over the years.
|
|
jimmy_row
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Hibernation
Status: Offline
Points: 2601
|
Posted: May 16 2008 at 00:39 |
|
^ I don't know if they were trying to make money with that direction, it seems more like Lady was the first thing that actually got a response for them, so DeYoung began writing more like it because it is what he did well...unfortunately there wasn't a big US market for prog, so they did what was most acceptable. It's interesting that Kansas were able to stay "true" longer with the same circumstances...I think they pulled off the songwriting better and certainly with more consistency. The thing I like about Styx is that prior to Crystal Ball they didn't have to rely as much on synthesizers so you get a more down to earth sound.
|
|
Signature Writers Guild on strike
|
|
Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
|
Posted: May 16 2008 at 00:32 |
jimmy_row wrote:
Shadowavenger wrote:
Awesome Proggy songs by Styx...
Movement For The Common Man-Styx I
What Has Come Between Us-Styx I
A Day-Styx II
Witch Wolf-The Serpent Is Rising
Jonas Psalter-The Serpent Is Rising
The Serpent Is Rising-The Serpent Is Rising
Golden Lark-Man Of Miracles
Man Of Miracles-Man Of Miracles
Mother Dear-Equinox!!!
Born For Adventure-Equinox
Suite Madame Blue-Equinox
Claire De Lune/Ballerina-Crystal Ball
Castle Walls-The Grand Illusion
Pieces Of Eight-Pieces Of Eight
Some of these songs are proggier than others, but all of them on this list I think have more progressive elements to them than people give Styx credit for...so next time you think of Styx, think of these great songs!
|
nice list If we took all the proggy Styx songs together, it would be one hell of an album. IMO they had a lot of potential in the early days, so it's a bit disappointing that they never unleashed an album full of stuff like Father OSA and Castle Wall...the combination of American hard rock, well-thought out arrangements, and those vocals...they had some good things goin' on but just tried to go in too many directions, ultimately taking a relatively "safe" route. |
I agree, they had the potential for greater stuff. Why they didn't follow more of a Kansas career path is a little disappointing. Kansas captured the proggy aspects of Yes and Genesis in their music along with a hard rock sound much better imo. Styx could have been more Yes like, but when DeYoung had the huge hit with the ballad of Lady, it was too easy to slide into the soft rock ballad territory, because they knew that's where the bucks were. Of course then you had the conflict btw Shaw and DeYoung because of that. Having said that, its kind of funny that DeYoung tried to do a mini prog opera with Mr Roboto which of course failed miserably.
|
|
jimmy_row
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Hibernation
Status: Offline
Points: 2601
|
Posted: May 16 2008 at 00:26 |
Shadowavenger wrote:
Awesome Proggy songs by Styx...
Movement For The Common Man-Styx I
What Has Come Between Us-Styx I
A Day-Styx II
Witch Wolf-The Serpent Is Rising
Jonas Psalter-The Serpent Is Rising
The Serpent Is Rising-The Serpent Is Rising
Golden Lark-Man Of Miracles
Man Of Miracles-Man Of Miracles
Mother Dear-Equinox!!!
Born For Adventure-Equinox
Suite Madame Blue-Equinox
Claire De Lune/Ballerina-Crystal Ball
Castle Walls-The Grand Illusion
Pieces Of Eight-Pieces Of Eight
Some of these songs are proggier than others, but all of them on this list I think have more progressive elements to them than people give Styx credit for...so next time you think of Styx, think of these great songs!
|
nice list If we took all the proggy Styx songs together, it would be one hell of an album. IMO they had a lot of potential in the early days, so it's a bit disappointing that they never unleashed an album full of stuff like Father OSA and Castle Wall...the combination of American hard rock, well-thought out arrangements, and those vocals...they had some good things goin' on but just tried to go in too many directions, ultimately taking a relatively "safe" route.
|
|
Signature Writers Guild on strike
|
|
Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
|
Posted: May 16 2008 at 00:22 |
|
actually, the discussion is directly relevant to the song Suite Madame Blue, which as that poster from the very beginining correctly stated, IS about American Imperialism throughout the world, the Vietnam failure, and the fall of our country due to our military and corporate imperialism. Styx hit the nail on the head with that song, kudos to them. If people don't understand what that song is about, or mistate historical facts which serves to miseducate people, or spread untruths, that must be stopped or corrected.
|
|
MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Beasty Heart
Status: Offline
Points: 32181
|
Posted: May 16 2008 at 00:15 |
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
Ummm......last I checked, wasn't this poll about one's fav Styx song??? I'm not going to comment on my own political feelings, but I really hope that this discussion either goes to another thread or, better yet, that this thread gets deleted. This forum is for us to comment on the one thing that all of us love: progressive rock. Let's not make it about something as trivial as political differences.
|
I agree, but the thread should not be deleted, rather I hope this argument can be taken to another place, solved, and we can continue this thread. Styx is a great band anyway and I'm really glad I saw this poll... they often get talked about with too much hate around here, IMO.  Those who haven't heard them (or just never checked into them enough) should listen to "The Grand Illusion" first.
|
|
|
|
horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
|
Posted: May 16 2008 at 00:13 |
Ummm......last I checked, wasn't this poll about one's fav Styx song??? I'm not going to comment on my own political feelings, but I really hope that this discussion either goes to another thread or, better yet, that this thread gets deleted. This forum is for us to comment on the one thing that all of us love: progressive rock. Let's not make it about something as trivial as political differences.
|
|
|
|
Shadowavenger
Forum Newbie
Joined: July 17 2007
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 33
|
Posted: May 16 2008 at 00:02 |
|
Awesome Proggy songs by Styx...
Movement For The Common Man-Styx I
What Has Come Between Us-Styx I
A Day-Styx II
Witch Wolf-The Serpent Is Rising
Jonas Psalter-The Serpent Is Rising
The Serpent Is Rising-The Serpent Is Rising
Golden Lark-Man Of Miracles
Man Of Miracles-Man Of Miracles
Mother Dear-Equinox!!!
Born For Adventure-Equinox
Suite Madame Blue-Equinox
Claire De Lune/Ballerina-Crystal Ball
Castle Walls-The Grand Illusion
Pieces Of Eight-Pieces Of Eight
Some of these songs are proggier than others, but all of them on this list I think have more progressive elements to them than people give Styx credit for...so next time you think of Styx, think of these great songs!
|
|
|
|
Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
|
Posted: May 15 2008 at 23:55 |
You make me laugh good sir. You reiterate my point of the French starting conflict in Vietnam and then say I'm rewriting history. Too Funny. I don't think anyone is disputing America's bungled involvement after the French left.
I didn't reiterate your point. You implied that we weren't being imperialistic because the French were there before us. Wrong. We were just as much or more imperialistic when we stepped right in and tried to manipulate free democratic elections for our own gain. And when that didn't work, we supported a corrupt dictator, installed a sham government, and involved ourselves in a country hafway around the world for 20 years to extend our influence in SE Asia. We also lost 50,000 troops doing it. If that isn't imperialism, I don't know what is.
Now getting back to the topic of Imperialism, this is where you may not only need a few history lessons yourself but maybe a few english lessons as well. Supporting a regime or dictatorship is not colonization.
Do you actually think "colonization" is the only way a country can act with 'imperialism'? You are kidding right? I mean, even my 7th grader understands that is not the case. Supporting a corrupt regime or dictatorship to extend or protect American interests such as selling arms or protecting spheres of influence is the very definition of imperialism. having a military presence or actually FIGHTING wars in other countries, especially civil wars, is such blatant imperialism that its mindboggling you wouldn't understand that. Wow, do you get your history from, Bill OReilly?
America even supported Suddam Hussein during the Iran/Iraq war. That doesn't mean that Iraq at that time was some type of American colony. It only means that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". America chose a side in the conflict, that's all. Now it's far cry to declare support for corrupt regimes as imperialistic in comparison to Soviet domination and military control of Eastern Block countries in Europe and Cuba after World War II which in many cases is why America made some of the strange bed fellows you mentioned.
again with the fatal mistake of thinking imperialism is ONLY actual colonization. No see, that's the 19th century version of imperialism. Like I said, if you want to update your education, I can lend you my son's grade school textbooks which cover the 20th century.
I think everyone can pretty much attest that America's relationships with oil producing countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iraq, UAE, Oman and Kuwait have had no bearing on oil prices at the pump. If America really went to war for oil then we wouldn't be paying $4 a gallon right now.
Now here's the real funny part. America has made it's share of mistakes. America isnt perfect but when the Cold War ended and the Berlin wall fell did you happen to notice which side of the wall people came flooding across? They came across to the western side where freedom is championed. They wanted to escape the imperial control of the Soviet Union. That's the fact! It gets even better, you'll like this part. Even Russia itself adopted a more capitolist mindframe. That doesn't make Russia a colony either now does it.
America isn't imperialist. America just happens to have been the most successful country economically and militarily since World War II. Even being the most militarily successful for over 60 years it hasn't gained any additional territories since then. America has also given more foreign aid than any other country.
I am really almost at a loss for words. So because we suck less than Russia, its OK that we supported corrupt inhumane anti human rights dictatorships all over the globe for the last 50 years? I mean, where do you get this stuff? I honestly would expect this out of a 6th grader who hasn't yet studied any history. You simply fail to understand what 20th century imperialism is and its got nothing to do with 'colonization'. Have you ever heard of the Phillipines? Do you understand what Eisenhower meant when he warned of the military-industrial complex?
Imperialistic:
| 1. |
the policy of extending the rule or authority of an empire or nation over foreign countries, or of acquiring and holding colonies and dependencies. |
| 2. |
advocacy of imperial interests. |
| 3. |
an imperial system of government. |
The Dictionary is your friend. 
I would suggest you read the bolded parts of that definiton, very slowly and carefully.
and by the way, history books can be your friend.
Edited by Dr. Prog - May 16 2008 at 00:16
|
|
Relayer09
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 31 2007
Location: Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 314
|
Posted: May 15 2008 at 23:34 |
Dr. Prog wrote:
Relayer09 wrote:
jimmy_row wrote:
ClassicRocker wrote:
Cesar Inca wrote:
Very emotional song about a political issue: America, stop being so imperalist because that won't lead you to greatness. If you want to be great again, stick to the dreams of freedom that gave you birth in the first place and stop being imperialist. That will help to solve the country's internal problems, the most important and urgent ones.
Kind regards. |
I don't want to get into a political argument here, but "imperialist"? Are you sure about that? I wasn't aware we had an American Empire. For clarification, are you referring to the song's meaning or your own opinion?
oh and, erm, "Styx rox!" and such...
|
well politics aren't the issue here anyway, it's the writer's intention. I'm pretty sure DeYoung has said that the song was a metaphor between a man's love for this woman, and what was going on with the country and the world. it was the bicentennial and Dennis was reflecting on what had happened to the dream, "but somehow you've changed"...
"Red, white, and blue..." that's a clear reference; the big deal was American supported militias in South America and the Dirty Wars around the time Suite Madame Blue was written. |
Umm...I don't know what South American and Dirty Wars you would be referenicing other than Vietnam (Which by the way was started by the French in 1938 when they nullified a treaty to try and gain back imperial control). Styx - Equinox was released in 1975. That was the year American pulled out of Vietnam. It wasn't until Ronald Reagan was in office that America was involved in a South American war in Panama and other military excersizes to combat drug flow.
Imperialism implys colonization. If you are talking about Guam and Puerto Rico you may be right. Japan, Germany and Kuwait are hardly anything resembeling a colony. Afganistan and Iraq have a military presence now but will also not become American colonies when those confilcts are finally resolved.
America might not get this "Imperial" label if conflicts like Bosnia, Kuwait, ect were able to be handled by countries in those regions to settle the conflicts. The fact is, that if America were to pull back and take the pre-World War I stance of isolationism it would leave most of the western world undefended. Just remember next time there is a large scale natural disaster who will be there and be expected to donate the most money and equipment to the recovery, it'll be those American "imperialists". |
leave it to a conservative to rewrite history and conveniently leave out facts. Yes, the French were the last imperialistic government to try to retain control in Vietnam before the US. The Vietnamese kicked their ass in 1954, and of course instead of learning a lesson, the US stepped right in and we proceeded to screw that up for the next 20 years, failing miserably even after promising free elections but rigging to to put a puppet dictator up when it was clear that Ho Chi Minh was going to win the election easily. And we just didn't pull out of Vietnam, we were basically kicked out because we were getting our hats handed to us and Nixon promised to get us out, in 1968, and it only took him 6 years  .
Your Rush Limbaugh education obviously seems to have some gaps, because the US has supported right wing dictatorships of the worst kind all over South and Central America for years, as well as in Africa, the Middle East (anyone remember the Shah of Iran?) and the Phillipines, just to name a few. By and large, the governments America supported were corrupt, undemocratic (and some were blatant dictatorships) and practiced inhumane cruelties of the worst kind on their own citizens. But the US supported them becuase they bought our guns and weapons. Reagan's support of corrupt governments in Nicaragua and El Salvador, which led to trading arms for hostages, was only the tip of the iceberg of decades of imperial control over Central America, all designed for MILITARY reasons and the Panama Canal (not to combat drugs---LMAO).
The song Suite Madame Blue was not just a song about what was going on in 1975---get a clue. The song was about the US involvement all over the world, generally on the wrong side of the fence when it came to human rights, for the purposes of fighting communism, or the Cold War, and to increase the military-industrial complex which even Eisenhower warned us about in the late 50s. The song is a statement about Vietnam and ALL the places the US was on the wrong side of the fence, supporting puppet dictators in exchange for the sale of arms and military presence (ie see the Phillipines). There is a huge difference between helping out in the name of freedom and humanitarianism like in Bosnia, where there is clear wrong going on, and maintaining corrupt puppet dictatorships for the purposes of controlling an economy and selling our guns and weapons for our pure greed, or controlling foreign oil fields for our pure greed.
I sure wish conservatives would take a few history courses once in a while instead of embarrassing themselves by spouting off like that---then we would have to spend much less time correcting their mistatements. |
You make me laugh good sir. You reiterate my point of the French starting conflict in Vietnam and then say I'm rewriting history. Too Funny. I don't think anyone is disputing America's bungled involvement after the French left.
Now getting back to the topic of Imperialism, this is where you may not only need a few history lessons yourself but maybe a few english lessons as well. Supporting a regime or dictatorship is not colonization. America even supported Suddam Hussein during the Iran/Iraq war. That doesn't mean that Iraq at that time was some type of American colony. It only means that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". America chose a side in the conflict, that's all. Now it's far cry to declare support for corrupt regimes as imperialistic in comparison to Soviet domination and military control of Eastern Block countries in Europe and Cuba after World War II which in many cases is why America made some of the strange bed fellows you mentioned.
I think everyone can pretty much attest that America's relationships with oil producing countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iraq, UAE, Oman and Kuwait have had no bearing on oil prices at the pump. If America really went to war for oil then we wouldn't be paying $4 a gallon right now.
Now here's the real funny part. America has made it's share of mistakes. America isnt perfect but when the Cold War ended and the Berlin wall fell did you happen to notice which side of the wall people came flooding across? They came across to the western side where freedom is championed. They wanted to escape the imperial control of the Soviet Union. That's the fact! It gets even better, you'll like this part. Even Russia itself adopted a more capitolist mindframe. That doesn't make Russia a colony either now does it.
America isn't imperialist. America just happens to have been the most successful country economically and militarily since World War II. Even being the most militarily successful for over 60 years it hasn't gained any additional territories since then. America has also given more foreign aid than any other country.
Imperialistic:
| 1. |
the policy of extending the rule or authority of an empire or nation over foreign countries, or of acquiring and holding colonies and dependencies. |
| 2. |
advocacy of imperial interests. |
| 3. |
an imperial system of government. |
The Dictionary is your friend.
|
|
If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb
|
|
Guests
Forum Guest Group
|
Posted: May 15 2008 at 22:14 |
Wow, All this in a thread on our favorite styx tunes. I chose Man In the Wilderness. I wonder what that one is about. 
|
|
Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
|
Posted: May 15 2008 at 22:06 |
Relayer09 wrote:
jimmy_row wrote:
ClassicRocker wrote:
Cesar Inca wrote:
Very emotional song about a political issue: America, stop being so imperalist because that won't lead you to greatness. If you want to be great again, stick to the dreams of freedom that gave you birth in the first place and stop being imperialist. That will help to solve the country's internal problems, the most important and urgent ones.
Kind regards. |
I don't want to get into a political argument here, but "imperialist"? Are you sure about that? I wasn't aware we had an American Empire. For clarification, are you referring to the song's meaning or your own opinion?
oh and, erm, "Styx rox!" and such...
|
well politics aren't the issue here anyway, it's the writer's intention. I'm pretty sure DeYoung has said that the song was a metaphor between a man's love for this woman, and what was going on with the country and the world. it was the bicentennial and Dennis was reflecting on what had happened to the dream, "but somehow you've changed"...
"Red, white, and blue..." that's a clear reference; the big deal was American supported militias in South America and the Dirty Wars around the time Suite Madame Blue was written. |
Umm...I don't know what South American and Dirty Wars you would be referenicing other than Vietnam (Which by the way was started by the French in 1938 when they nullified a treaty to try and gain back imperial control). Styx - Equinox was released in 1975. That was the year American pulled out of Vietnam. It wasn't until Ronald Reagan was in office that America was involved in a South American war in Panama and other military excersizes to combat drug flow.
Imperialism implys colonization. If you are talking about Guam and Puerto Rico you may be right. Japan, Germany and Kuwait are hardly anything resembeling a colony. Afganistan and Iraq have a military presence now but will also not become American colonies when those confilcts are finally resolved.
America might not get this "Imperial" label if conflicts like Bosnia, Kuwait, ect were able to be handled by countries in those regions to settle the conflicts. The fact is, that if America were to pull back and take the pre-World War I stance of isolationism it would leave most of the western world undefended. Just remember next time there is a large scale natural disaster who will be there and be expected to donate the most money and equipment to the recovery, it'll be those American "imperialists". |
leave it to a conservative to rewrite history and conveniently leave out facts. Yes, the French were the last imperialistic government to try to retain control in Vietnam before the US. The Vietnamese kicked their ass in 1954, and of course instead of learning a lesson, the US stepped right in and we proceeded to screw that up for the next 20 years, failing miserably even after promising free elections but rigging to to put a puppet dictator up when it was clear that Ho Chi Minh was going to win the election easily. And we just didn't pull out of Vietnam, we were basically kicked out because we were getting our hats handed to us and Nixon promised to get us out, in 1968, and it only took him 6 years .
Your Rush Limbaugh education obviously seems to have some gaps, because the US has supported right wing dictatorships of the worst kind all over South and Central America for years, as well as in Africa, the Middle East (anyone remember the Shah of Iran?) and the Phillipines, just to name a few. By and large, the governments America supported were corrupt, undemocratic (and some were blatant dictatorships) and practiced inhumane cruelties of the worst kind on their own citizens. But the US supported them becuase they bought our guns and weapons. Reagan's support of corrupt governments in Nicaragua and El Salvador, which led to trading arms for hostages, was only the tip of the iceberg of decades of imperial control over Central America, all designed for MILITARY reasons and the Panama Canal (not to combat drugs---LMAO).
The song Suite Madame Blue was not just a song about what was going on in 1975---get a clue. The song was about the US involvement all over the world, generally on the wrong side of the fence when it came to human rights, for the purposes of fighting communism, or the Cold War, and to increase the military-industrial complex which even Eisenhower warned us about in the late 50s. The song is a statement about Vietnam and ALL the places the US was on the wrong side of the fence, supporting puppet dictators in exchange for the sale of arms and military presence (ie see the Phillipines). There is a huge difference between helping out in the name of freedom and humanitarianism like in Bosnia, where there is clear wrong going on, and maintaining corrupt puppet dictatorships for the purposes of controlling an economy and selling our guns and weapons for our pure greed, or controlling foreign oil fields for our pure greed.
I sure wish conservatives would take a few history courses once in a while instead of embarrassing themselves by spouting off like that---then we would have to spend much less time correcting their mistatements.
Edited by Dr. Prog - May 15 2008 at 22:15
|
|
Relayer09
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 31 2007
Location: Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 314
|
Posted: May 15 2008 at 20:58 |
jimmy_row wrote:
ClassicRocker wrote:
Cesar Inca wrote:
Very emotional song about a political issue: America, stop being so imperalist because that won't lead you to greatness. If you want to be great again, stick to the dreams of freedom that gave you birth in the first place and stop being imperialist. That will help to solve the country's internal problems, the most important and urgent ones.
Kind regards. |
I don't want to get into a political argument here, but "imperialist"? Are you sure about that? I wasn't aware we had an American Empire. For clarification, are you referring to the song's meaning or your own opinion?
oh and, erm, "Styx rox!" and such...
|
well politics aren't the issue here anyway, it's the writer's intention. I'm pretty sure DeYoung has said that the song was a metaphor between a man's love for this woman, and what was going on with the country and the world. it was the bicentennial and Dennis was reflecting on what had happened to the dream, "but somehow you've changed"...
"Red, white, and blue..." that's a clear reference; the big deal was American supported militias in South America and the Dirty Wars around the time Suite Madame Blue was written. |
Umm...I don't know what South American and Dirty Wars you would be referenicing other than Vietnam (Which by the way was started by the French in 1938 when they nullified a treaty to try and gain back imperial control). Styx - Equinox was released in 1975. That was the year American pulled out of Vietnam. It wasn't until Ronald Reagan was in office that America was involved in a South American war in Panama and other military excersizes to combat drug flow.
Imperialism implys colonization. If you are talking about Guam and Puerto Rico you may be right. Japan, Germany and Kuwait are hardly anything resembeling a colony. Afganistan and Iraq have a military presence now but will also not become American colonies when those confilcts are finally resolved.
America might not get this "Imperial" label if conflicts like Bosnia, Kuwait, ect were able to be handled by countries in those regions to settle the conflicts. The fact is, that if America were to pull back and take the pre-World War I stance of isolationism it would leave most of the western world undefended. Just remember next time there is a large scale natural disaster who will be there and be expected to donate the most money and equipment to the recovery, it'll be those American "imperialists".
|
|
If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb
|
|
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
STYX Poll
