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Dim 
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 Topic: Talk Talk for post rock!
Posted: May 17 2008 at 22:39 |
Okay this has been lurking in the back of every mind of a Talk Talk, and post rock listener alike, but no one has stepped out and said anything (at least, not that I can find). So I'll take a stab at it.
As many of you know Talk Talk Started out a synth pop band, plain and simple, but towards the end of the bands life, they made two gorgeous albums Spirit of Eden, and Laughing stock. These two albums are completely without synths, and bring in heavy minimalism, and experimentation that completely changed their sound. Now these albums trends are recognized for their influence on post rock, and few will argue that Talk Talk may as well be one of, if not the first post rock band. The combination of ambiance, experimental ism, and long strong structure are still the biggest factors in post rock even today.
By putting TT in crossover, do we mean that they are a band that built the bridge between post rock and prog? If so, then I understand why they are in that category, but if we put Talk Talk in Post rock, then people will know what to look for if they really liked the later two albums. Also, this will just add two more albums to the sad post rock top twenty "defining" albums, which only has what, fifteen albums in it? If Talk Talk were on the PA for more than their experimental albums, I wouldn't be writing this, but they're not, so I think they should be put in the post rock section.
Discussion will happen.
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Weston
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Posted: May 17 2008 at 23:10 |
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Well, being an old codger I had no idea what was meant by post rock. I loved Talk Talk from the beginning though. That 2nd album was great (I never got the first) - every song, synth pop or not. And I thought each album got even better after that.
To my antique ears, The Color of Spring started sounding a little like Traffic. Maybe it was the Hammond. (Actually I just Googled the album and Steve Winwood played on it! So no surpise there.) The last two albums I started thinking of as prog because they seem so experimental in the way that King Crimson's middle period was experimental.
So I have no problem with their connection to progressive music and wouldn't even put them in crossover.
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Soul Dreamer
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Posted: May 17 2008 at 23:21 |
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In my humble opinion they are "pure" synth rock for the first two albums (which I like quite a lot btw). The Color of Spring is already a prog album, which I would classify as "crossover" in the same way as Supertramp, holding the middle between commercial pop and more elaborate compositions. "The Spirit of Eden" and "Laughing Stock" have nothing to do with synth pop, are completely void of that, and are to me at least pure Post Rock. So...you can classify them as "crossover" for their whole oeuvre, or put "Post Rock" for their final albums....both are fine IMO
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To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica)
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Dim
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Posted: May 17 2008 at 23:55 |
Well, consider if they were to break up after the color of spring would they be hear? I dont have the album, but I would venture to say probably not, they are hear motly for their last albums, which are the post rock ones. 
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Pnoom!
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Posted: May 18 2008 at 00:08 |
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Colour of Spring is not prog, not at all.
Their two "prog" albums are SoE and LS, and they are both undeniably post-rock. As such, Talk Talk belongs in post-rock. Crossover just doesn't fit at all.
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Fenmalain
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Posted: May 18 2008 at 00:28 |
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Mark Hollis is also listed under Crossover as a solo artist. His solo album is in the same vein as SoE and LS. I feel they both would be better in Post-rock.
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Easy Livin
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Posted: May 18 2008 at 06:33 |
I think we probably generally agree that their genre should be determined by their final 2 albums.
I have misgivings about post rock for 2 reasons.
- I feel it is a modern genre, Talk Talk have simply been around too long to fit in. It's a bit like neo-prog, their is a sort of starting point for it, before which it did not exist.
- I think Talk Talk's music is more sophisticated than Post rock. To me, Post rock is a comparatively basic style (personally I don't consider it prog, but that's another debate!). Talk Talk put a lot of thought and creativity into every individual note on their later albums. Post Rock bands take basic phonetic drum rhythms add very repetitive melodies.
I hope I don't sound too degrading towards Post rock, I actually enjoy it, but I don't think TT fit there.
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Prog-jester
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Posted: May 18 2008 at 06:56 |
I agree with Bob here. I proposed to move Talkies from Prog-Related to any other genre some while ago (and still proud for that  ), and I had no problem with moving them to Crossover. Yes, two albums are PROTO-Post-Rock, but others are New Wave/World Music/Art Rock, hence, Crossover dominates. On the other hand, if we take Talkies as Post-Rock Fathers ONLY, disregarding their previous efforts, they SHOULD go to Post-Rock. Hollis' solo CAN fit in Post-Rock musically, but spiritually it has NOTHING common with Post-Rock, it's rather Modern Classical Music. But he can be moved, I won't argue here. My verdict: Talkies for Post-Rock: 50% pro/50% con Hollis for Post-Rock: 75% pro/25% con
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Avantgardehead
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Posted: May 18 2008 at 18:43 |
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It's one of those things where yes, they are influential, but not exactly post-rock themselves. And since we don't have a proto-post-rock, I think they're fine where they are.
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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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Dim
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Posted: May 18 2008 at 19:11 |
 Prog-jester wrote:
I agree with Bob here. I proposed to move Talkies from Prog-Related to any other genre some while ago (and still proud for that ), and I had no problem with moving them to Crossover. Yes, two albums are PROTO-Post-Rock, but others are New Wave/World Music/Art Rock, hence, Crossover dominates. On the other hand, if we take Talkies as Post-Rock Fathers ONLY, disregarding their previous efforts, they SHOULD go to Post-Rock.
Hollis' solo CAN fit in Post-Rock musically, but spiritually it has NOTHING common with Post-Rock, it's rather Modern Classical Music. But he can be moved, I won't argue here.
My verdict:
Talkies for Post-Rock: 50% pro/50% con
Hollis for Post-Rock: 75% pro/25% con
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Thats what I'm talking about, we are disregarding their first three albums because they're not prog at all. As I said before if we were considering them, they would be fine where they are, but because they're not prog, they belong in post rock.
Bob, I dont think whether your interpretation of post rock is relevant, take Sigur ros, I think they put just as much time and effort into every note and still create music that is just as good, if not better than SoE or Laughing Stock. Regardless, of our opnions or not the last two albums are considered post rock, and the others no where near prog, therefore they belong in post rock.
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Pnoom!
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Posted: May 20 2008 at 11:30 |
Easy Livin wrote:
I think we probably generally agree that their genre should be determined by their final 2 albums.
I have misgivings about post rock for 2 reasons.
- I feel it is a modern genre, Talk Talk have simply been around too long to fit in. It's a bit like neo-prog, their is a sort of starting point for it, before which it did not exist.
- I think Talk Talk's music is more sophisticated than Post rock. To me, Post rock is a comparatively basic style (personally I don't consider it prog, but that's another debate!). Talk Talk put a lot of thought and creativity into every individual note on their later albums. Post Rock bands take basic phonetic drum rhythms add very repetitive melodies.
I hope I don't sound too degrading towards Post rock, I actually enjoy it, but I don't think TT fit there. |
The actual definition of what post-rock is, using rock instruments for non-rock purposes, is exactly what Talk Talk did. Thus they are post-rock. Modern bands have moved it in a new direction, but their albums are definitely post-rock.
I will point out that the allmusicguide classifies them as post-rock:
| their masterful final recordings, while neglected commercially, possess a timelessness rare among music of any genre, and in retrospect they seem the clear starting point for the post-rock movement of the 1990s. |
Edited by Pnoom! - May 20 2008 at 11:31
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Avantgardehead
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Posted: May 20 2008 at 15:34 |
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AllMusic also classifies Atreyu as death metal, so I really wouldn't trust it as far as genre assignment goes.
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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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Pnoom!
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Posted: May 20 2008 at 15:38 |
Avantgardehead wrote:
AllMusic also classifies Atreyu as death metal, so I really wouldn't trust it as far as genre assignment goes.
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You ignored the crux of my argument, you know.
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tszirmay
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Posted: May 20 2008 at 19:49 |
The pigeon cooed for its hole! 
I am a big fan of Talk Talk (take a look at my avatar and you will see why) , Hollis a stellar vocalist. Laughing Stock and Spirit in Eden certainly are mesmerizing. I am nevertheless also a sucker for It's My Life (not too much the song though) but Renee, Dum Dum Girl , Such a Shame and my fave Call in the Night Boy (great driving music) are exceptional tunes, prog or not. Wherever you stick them , I will follow (no, not the U2 song)  |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Dim
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Posted: May 20 2008 at 20:14 |
^What did that have to do with our argument?
Anyways, Folly is right, Talk Talk is post rock by definition. Their three most popular tags on last fm are synth pop, 80's, and Post rock. So apparently even the fans not here think this.
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tszirmay
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Posted: May 20 2008 at 20:22 |
schizoid_man77 wrote:
^What did that have to do with our argument?
Anyways, Folly is right, Talk Talk is post rock by definition. Their three most popular tags on last fm are synth pop, 80's, and Post rock. So apparently even the fans not here think this. |
I forgot to argue! talk talk, doesn't any one argue anymore! I was hinting that Talk Talk should be, IMHO, Prog-Related . Post-Rock is historically not applicable to categorize them. They belong with the Beatles, Roxy Music etc...
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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laplace
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Posted: May 20 2008 at 20:25 |
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it would be neato if people started arguing in favour of accuracy rather than convention
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Dim
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Posted: May 20 2008 at 20:30 |
tszirmay wrote:
schizoid_man77 wrote:
^What did that have to do with our argument?
Anyways, Folly is right, Talk Talk is post rock by definition. Their three most popular tags on last fm are synth pop, 80's, and Post rock. So apparently even the fans not here think this. |
I forgot to argue! talk talk, doesn't any one argue anymore! I was hinting that Talk Talk should be, IMHO, Prog-Related . Post-Rock is historically not applicable to categorize them. They belong with the Beatles, Roxy Music etc... |
What?!?!
How can you support that, can you?
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tszirmay
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Posted: May 20 2008 at 20:38 |
schizoid_man77 wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
schizoid_man77 wrote:
^What did that have to do with our argument?
Anyways, Folly is right, Talk Talk is post rock by definition. Their three most popular tags on last fm are synth pop, 80's, and Post rock. So apparently even the fans not here think this. |
I forgot to argue! talk talk, doesn't any one argue anymore! I was hinting that Talk Talk should be, IMHO, Prog-Related . Post-Rock is historically not applicable to categorize them. They belong with the Beatles, Roxy Music etc... |
What?!?!
How can you support that, can you? |
You know what, I won't support labelling or in this case, mislabelling , I will leave that in your capable and erudite hands. Which is why I mentioned pigeon holing. Goodnight and good luck.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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tszirmay
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Posted: May 20 2008 at 20:40 |
Easy Livin wrote:
I think we probably generally agree that their genre should be determined by their final 2 albums.
I have misgivings about post rock for 2 reasons.
- I feel it is a modern genre, Talk Talk have simply been around too long to fit in. It's a bit like neo-prog, their is a sort of starting point for it, before which it did not exist.
- I think Talk Talk's music is more sophisticated than Post rock. To me, Post rock is a comparatively basic style (personally I don't consider it prog, but that's another debate!). Talk Talk put a lot of thought and creativity into every individual note on their later albums. Post Rock bands take basic phonetic drum rhythms add very repetitive melodies.
I hope I don't sound too degrading towards Post rock, I actually enjoy it, but I don't think TT fit there. |
Easy Livin' has done the supporting for me and I concur. But of course, we may be wrong 
Edited by tszirmay - May 20 2008 at 22:05
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Talk Talk for post rock!
