Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Blogs
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - On Musical Expression And Music As Art
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedOn Musical Expression And Music As Art

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
Message
laplace View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: October 06 2005
Location: popupControl();
Status: Offline
Points: 7606
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2008 at 07:54
He is saying that you should try all genres before you decide you don't like them. basically this is an extended misunderstanding over a common sense issue =P
Back to Top
The Pessimist View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 13 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3834
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2008 at 21:33
Precisely, it goes with anything in life and music: you cannot judge a book by its cover. It's like if someone tells a symphonic fan to stay away from bands like Opeth and Meshuggah because they have aggressive shouting/growling, should they not even give it a try first? Even after you've listened to something and you don't like it, i think it's also important to try and see why fans love that type of music so much and at least appreciate it. A lot of people nowadays sl*g off a bands and their fans because they don't personally enjoy it. I see this as wrong (quite obviously now you look at it closer).

I think it's also important to delve deeper into music. For example, with classical, it doesn't seem that much on the outside to me. But when i analyse it closer, i think to myself on numerous ocassions "oh sh*t, i see what he's done there now. damn that's bloody clever! and i really enjoy the melody as well!". I think if you dig deep into music you can get a lot more out of it than if you just simply listen to it.

My point is that i think it's important not to judge a band by first impressions, as well as what people have told you, which further relates to open-mindedness: music is without a doubt deeper than it appears, and to truly experience it you need to listen to it a good few times first. It's the same with rap: I hated it at first, and i'm sure a lot of people on PA share this, but then i looked into its real purpose. It is poetry, it doesn't focus on the musically technical side of things, and i gotta say that i agree with a lot of stuff guys like 2pac say. Same goes with Extreme Metal bands and RIO etc... There is a deeper purpose to the music, and you really have to experience that before you pass judgement. In fact, the bands that create these genres are even in ways more "prog" than bands like Genesis or Yes. That's what i think anyway.
Back to Top
Caleb666 View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: August 07 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2008 at 12:09

Hi guys/gals,

Since music is art, it can be judged both objectively and subjectively. When it comes to taste (liking or not liking) it is obviously purely subjective, but you can also judge an album/track/band objectively, for example, by looking at the musicianship, influence on the genre or in general, live performance, and other criteria.

I have to agree with the others who have stressed the importance of being open-minded and not bashing musical styles they have not listened to or have not at least tried to appreciate.

Many kids nowdays start with a certain style (it seems that the most prevalent nowdays is Metal) and do not rear their heads outside of it. Anything that doesn't have the extreme Metal elements in it is usually judged by these people as "boring". 

If you look at my last.fm charts: http://www.last.fm/user/Caleb666 you will notice that I try to listen to almost every kind of music. I think that we all have something in common, and certain pop hooks are bound to be liked by many people (even those aggressive metalists... who will probably say that they don't like it 'cause they think it makes them look less manly).

This is something that I have encountered many times. Being called "gay" for listening to Soul, Soft Rock, and some earlier 50s Vocal Jazz stuff, or, someone equated my taste to that of his grandmother for listening to Classical music. These prejudices and labels must be eradicated.

There's no such thing as "old" music. Music is asexual (hey, look at Glam Rock and Glam Metal!). It seems that extreme metal and Metal in general has gotten the image of being for real men, while the rest softer/quieter type are for "pussies", which is an ugly stereotype.

Music doesn't have to be extreme and loud to be able to make you get on your feet and dance. This is something many Metal fans don't understand. 

Keep on rockin' my friends!



Edited by Caleb666 - August 07 2008 at 15:14
Back to Top
The Pessimist View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 13 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3834
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2008 at 07:42
I'm a huge metal fan and i understand that perfectly :-| but i see what you mean. Music is immortal IMO; hey i know people who listen quite gladly to Renaissance music (no i'm not talking about the band :P), which goes back nearly 500 years from now. Then you have folk fans which stretches even further back. Music doesn't age, neither does it die.
"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg
Back to Top
Toaster Mantis View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 5898
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2008 at 10:36
Originally posted by kibble_alex kibble_alex wrote:

Music doesn't age, neither does it die.


... it does not offer truth, and neither does it lie? LOL

Seriously, though, I will have to disagree on that one. Take all the music that was written long before recording technology was invented, for example the music from the Renaissance that you mentioned. Here, we have very little idea exactly how the composer wanted it to be performed. A piece of music can change over time, "age" you could call it, without a single note changing. Even if its "essence" can be preserved, it cannot be done 100%, especially if its original cultural context (and hence the intended audience) no longer exists in the same way.


"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
Back to Top
The Pessimist View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 13 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3834
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2008 at 05:24
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Originally posted by kibble_alex kibble_alex wrote:

Music doesn't age, neither does it die.


... it does not offer truth, and neither does it lie? LOL

Seriously, though, I will have to disagree on that one. Take all the music that was written long before recording technology was invented, for example the music from the Renaissance that you mentioned. Here, we have very little idea exactly how the composer wanted it to be performed. A piece of music can change over time, "age" you could call it, without a single note changing. Even if its "essence" can be preserved, it cannot be done 100%, especially if its original cultural context (and hence the intended audience) no longer exists in the same way.




Hmmm i don't know. Composers back then did leave a lot of clues to how their music was to be played. For example, almost every single quaver in Bach's keyboard music like Fugues, is very obviously detatched as he mentions in the preface's and analogies for his, let's call, "albums" or "opi". Handel wrote the Messiah with very precise direction, so i imagine people are singing it now exactly as they did 300 or so years ago. I can't think of any earlier examples than that, but i know for a fact there are many. Of course, there will be exceptions to the point i made, but nothings really certain.
"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg
Back to Top
Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2008 at 13:23
Originally posted by kibble_alex kibble_alex wrote:

I'm a huge metal fan and i understand that perfectly :-| but i see what you mean. Music is immortal IMO; hey i know people who listen quite gladly to Renaissance music (no i'm not talking about the band :P), which goes back nearly 500 years from now. Then you have folk fans which stretches even further back. Music doesn't age, neither does it die.


Interesting.
I beg to differ.

If music doesn't age, why is it when we listen to music from a certain time period, we are able to pick out a rough time frame of when it was created?
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Online
Points: 8760
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2008 at 11:23
Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:

Originally posted by kibble_alex kibble_alex wrote:

I'm a huge metal fan and i understand that perfectly :-| but i see what you mean. Music is immortal IMO; hey i know people who listen quite gladly to Renaissance music (no i'm not talking about the band :P), which goes back nearly 500 years from now. Then you have folk fans which stretches even further back. Music doesn't age, neither does it die.


Interesting.
I beg to differ.

If music doesn't age, why is it when we listen to music from a certain time period, we are able to pick out a rough time frame of when it was created?

Because each era reflects the evolution of a form of music or even music in general at that point in time, the state of society and goings-on in the world through the lyrics and - in the recorded music era - the music recording and production technology of the time.  In that sense, music is inseparable from the time when it was originally created. That does not necessarily mean that it would lose its relevance to future audiences with the passing of that period of time, which is probably what Alex was trying to say. Over to Alex. Wink   
Back to Top
Toaster Mantis View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 5898
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2008 at 06:18
A funny thing: Since I last posted in this thread, I've actually begun warming up to non-Melvins grunge and started to like that genre after I bought Nirvana's In Utero on a recommendation from a friend. Even Soundgarden, whom I always thought of as the definition of "band I by all logic should like but still don't get", have finally begun clicking for me. Cool
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
Back to Top
Trademark View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2008 at 17:49
"(we even have our own "theory god" on PA, Trademark)"

Embarrassed  awww shucks...

I'm as embarrassed as a I-IV-V at a Babbitt party.
Back to Top
Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2008 at 18:08
^Well I've yet to see someone that knows as much theory as you around hereBig smile
Back to Top
Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2008 at 04:45
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:

Originally posted by kibble_alex kibble_alex wrote:

I'm a huge metal fan and i understand that perfectly :-| but i see what you mean. Music is immortal IMO; hey i know people who listen quite gladly to Renaissance music (no i'm not talking about the band :P), which goes back nearly 500 years from now. Then you have folk fans which stretches even further back. Music doesn't age, neither does it die.


Interesting.
I beg to differ.

If music doesn't age, why is it when we listen to music from a certain time period, we are able to pick out a rough time frame of when it was created?

Because each era reflects the evolution of a form of music or even music in general at that point in time, the state of society and goings-on in the world through the lyrics and - in the recorded music era - the music recording and production technology of the time.  In that sense, music is inseparable from the time when it was originally created. That does not necessarily mean that it would lose its relevance to future audiences with the passing of that period of time, which is probably what Alex was trying to say. Over to Alex. Wink   


I guess I didn't read it the same way as you did, but cheers anyway for helping me see that side of itSmile
Back to Top
The Pessimist View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 13 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3834
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2008 at 17:35
Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:

Originally posted by kibble_alex kibble_alex wrote:

I'm a huge metal fan and i understand that perfectly :-| but i see what you mean. Music is immortal IMO; hey i know people who listen quite gladly to Renaissance music (no i'm not talking about the band :P), which goes back nearly 500 years from now. Then you have folk fans which stretches even further back. Music doesn't age, neither does it die.


Interesting.
I beg to differ.

If music doesn't age, why is it when we listen to music from a certain time period, we are able to pick out a rough time frame of when it was created?

Because each era reflects the evolution of a form of music or even music in general at that point in time, the state of society and goings-on in the world through the lyrics and - in the recorded music era - the music recording and production technology of the time.  In that sense, music is inseparable from the time when it was originally created. That does not necessarily mean that it would lose its relevance to future audiences with the passing of that period of time, which is probably what Alex was trying to say. Over to Alex. Wink   


I guess I didn't read it the same way as you did, but cheers anyway for helping me see that side of itSmile


That is kind of what i meant. It does age physically obviously, but it's effect on people never fades or ages. For instance im still listening to baroque music and a lot of the members on PA are listening to 60s/70s prog rock. Of course, the quality has aged, but the effect it has on people remains strong.
"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg
Back to Top
BroSpence View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 05 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2614
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 24 2008 at 00:37
I agree that there is always emotion put into music by the musicians playing it and those people listening to it.  As an avid music listener and schooled musician I am well aware of what goes into and can be interpreted from, music.  

I remember when I first got into the likes of Steve Vai, Dream Theater, and other "virtuosic" groups I would get very angry when people said there was no emotional value in their music! 

As if Steve was playing and writing his music with a dead heart? Mainly I think that mindset came out of ignorance and the fact that there wasn't much string bending which was/is quite popular in radio music style guitar (Santana had his huge comeback at that time).  

To be perfectly honest the more you know about how to play an instrument the more open you are to express yourself as you are a more able player, and thinker.  Just as a writer can better put words on a page if they have a good vocabulary and grammatical sense/knowledge.  Not to say some who is a virtuoso is a better songwriter or what have you because of their ability, but they have more controllable options with which to express themselves.  

Alan Holdsworth was mentioned because his style is often criticized as cold and unemotional and he is rather technical.  I personally can not stand his playing.  It is not because of the emotional aspect whatsoever.  I just find his playing to be boring and I really dislike his tone.  I have no doubt he is putting his heart and soul into his music though, as there is no way to not do so.  



Back to Top
tamijo View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 4287
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2009 at 10:28

Love this tread, as it goes beoynd just saying this is better than that.

Its also important to point out that most people that listen to a lot of music, will often need change all the time. So for a period i will listen to a few new Hard Rock bands , later it will be a new pop singer i find interesting for a week or 2, and the next thing will be relistning my old Fripp's. If im asked what i like best, ill not pick the POP singer, cos i know it wont last, but that said the record can be wonderful music for a short while.
  
 


Edited by tamijo - March 06 2009 at 10:30
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
Back to Top
The Pessimist View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 13 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3834
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2009 at 17:34
Originally posted by tamijo tamijo wrote:

Love this tread, as it goes beoynd just saying this is better than that.

Its also important to point out that most people that listen to a lot of music, will often need change all the time. So for a period i will listen to a few new Hard Rock bands , later it will be a new pop singer i find interesting for a week or 2, and the next thing will be relistning my old Fripp's. If im asked what i like best, ill not pick the POP singer, cos i know it wont last, but that said the record can be wonderful music for a short while.
  
 


The great thing about music is that it is so diverse, that you can literally listen to something completely new every day for the rest of your life and still not have covered at half of it. You can progress through your music tastes. About a week ago I was listening to Nasum (grindcore band) quite frequently. Just yesterday I was listening to Miles Davis and Return To Forever. At the moment I'm listening to a Brahms Violin Concerto. I think the point I'm trying to make is that there is good in almost absolutely everything, from Grincore to Jazz to Classical to Reggae, there is always something to enjoy there if you are willing to open your mind.

Why just now I had my friend round who is into Avenged Sevenfold, played him Bach's Lute Suite in E Minor (the one with the famous Bourree) and he said it's one of the best pieces of music he ever heard. And he's never even considered listening to classical music before Just goes to show really, prog can be the same. You just gotta be willing to expand your horizons.
"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg
Back to Top
mwg5439 View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: February 28 2009
Location: Rhode Island
Status: Offline
Points: 20
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2009 at 17:08
This was incredibly well said.  In regards to the learning music in order to appreciate it thing, it is so very true.  Before I started playing guitar (a little over two years ago?) I listened to very few types of music and I continued to be relatively close minded until I heard John Mclaughlin and Mahavishnu Orchestra.  The fact that he was able to get some of the erratic sounds and tones from his guitar dumbfounded me as a guitar novice, but having a basic understanding of the instrument.  From there I looked through an assortment of virtuosos (Malmsteen, Vai, Gilbert, Segovia, Paco De Lucia, Meola etc) and am now looking at the opposite side of the spectrum with ambiet music alla Eno, Explosions in the Sky etc.  In my opinion, ones ability to appreciate something is relative to their understanding as well as open minded-ness.  
Back to Top
mwg5439 View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: February 28 2009
Location: Rhode Island
Status: Offline
Points: 20
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2009 at 17:18

Sorry for double post, is there an edit button somewhere?

The dissonance thing is also very true.  Contrast is very effective in keeping music interesting.  Whether it is in volume and attack (thinking "open country joy"-Birds of Fire- Mahavishnu Orchestra) or dissonance and polytonality (thinking Stavinsky's Rite of Spring). 
Back to Top
Toaster Mantis View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 5898
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2009 at 14:31
Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:

Originally posted by tamijo tamijo wrote:

Love this tread, as it goes beoynd just saying this is better than that.

Its also important to point out that most people that listen to a lot of music, will often need change all the time. So for a period i will listen to a few new Hard Rock bands , later it will be a new pop singer i find interesting for a week or 2, and the next thing will be relistning my old Fripp's. If im asked what i like best, ill not pick the POP singer, cos i know it wont last, but that said the record can be wonderful music for a short while.
  
 


The great thing about music is that it is so diverse, that you can literally listen to something completely new every day for the rest of your life and still not have covered at half of it. You can progress through your music tastes. About a week ago I was listening to Nasum (grindcore band) quite frequently. Just yesterday I was listening to Miles Davis and Return To Forever. At the moment I'm listening to a Brahms Violin Concerto. I think the point I'm trying to make is that there is good in almost absolutely everything, from Grincore to Jazz to Classical to Reggae, there is always something to enjoy there if you are willing to open your mind.

Why just now I had my friend round who is into Avenged Sevenfold, played him Bach's Lute Suite in E Minor (the one with the famous Bourree) and he said it's one of the best pieces of music he ever heard. And he's never even considered listening to classical music before Just goes to show really, prog can be the same. You just gotta be willing to expand your horizons.


That said, expanding your horizons is something that's easier said than done because getting completely familiar with a specific sub-genre's tropes and conventions so you can get to really understand what it has to offer under the surface, let alone properly absorb all the albums that are its classics, take a really long time. Most of the genres I listen to right now I've been familiar with for around 8 years even if it's only recently I think I've gotten a good understanding of them. The big exception is post-punk which I've gotten into within the last couple years, and even then it's something derived from rock music as is pretty much all the stuff I listen to. By the way, the two post-punk artists I listen to most have some connection to stuff I've been a fan of for years. Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds are influenced by traditional American music which I've grown up with, and the Sisters of Mercy I might have been prepared for through their influence on Type O Negative. Then maybe that is not the case, since I think Type O Negative are better as an odd but serious heavy metal band than as a goofy goth rock band. LOL

That said, through all the weird stuff Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds seamlessly blend they seem to be a gateway drug to music I might not listen to.
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
Back to Top
AtomicCrimsonRush View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Symphonic Team

Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 14256
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2009 at 23:02
Intriguing conversing all round. Please go on, don't mind me...
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.086 seconds.