Chick Corea’s romantic warriors

"Return to forever" is the super group formed by Chick Corea. Originally released in 1976, "romantic warriors" is a true landmark of fusion jazz. A bunch of very talented musicians (the genial Stanley clark on bass guitar, Aldi Meola...) created a phenomenal & amazing album, only instrumental and technically highest. The fusion is produced to perfection between jazz and prog rock. A MUST. I think that this group deserves a page on this site. 

Where are you MAX???

RTF belongs to the jazz-rock section, not jazz-fusion, therefore not prog.  

Here is what I wrote in Hammar's thread on RTF : "Sorry guys, but all the bands you are talking about (T. W. Lifetime, Weather Report, Lenny White) belong to the jazz-rock subgenre, a subgenre of jazz that has to be distinguished from the jazz-fusion subgenre (a sub-genre involving people that played in prog-rock bands, at least concerning Bruford, Brand X, [Colosseum II ?], the other representatives of this sub-genre being Zappa, Kenso, Cartoone but also current artists steming from the prog-metal sub-genre : Planet X (Virgil Donati + Derek Sherinian), LTE (Mike Portnoy + Jordan Rudess + Tony Levin + John Petrucci), Bozzio Levin Stevens, RAMA (led by Dixie Dregs' bassist Andy West), Spastic Ink [with the incomparable Ron Jarzombek on guitar]). So if you are considering the following artists/bands : Jean-Luc Ponty, Allan Holdsworth, Al di Meola, Uzeb, Stanley Clarke, Weather Report, Miles Davis, Tony Williams Lifetime, The Crusaders, Lenny White, Return to Forever, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Billy Cobham, The Brecker Brothers, Herbie Hancock, Pat Metheny, Dave Weckl, Chick Corea's Elektric band... they are all classified under the jazz-rock label. The very thin line between jazz-rock and jazz-fusion !"

philippe wrote: lucas wrote: RTF belongs to the jazz-rock section, not jazz-fusion, therefore not prog.   ...you can't say that is jazz-rock. It's the ultimate jazz fusion trip, with discreet prog accents. Nothing else.

If it's not jazz-rock, so which band played jazz-rock  as this supergroup involves people who actually are considered as jazz-rock artists : Al di Meola, Chick Corea, Lenny White and Stanley Clarke ?

lucas wrote: BTW, Soft Machine featuring John Marshall, Hatfield, National Health are all jazz-fusion bands and not canterbury.

Okay, I'll allow you to slide on the John Marshall era of Soft Machine, but Hatfield & The North & National Health are DEFINITE Canterbury bands. If you need an enlightenment on my statment please visit these sites: http://www.macgraphic.co.jp/ich/ & http://perso.club-internet.fr/calyx/

You can still be in all denial, but you'll just be incorrect.

OK, I could tell that Hatfield and NH have one foot in fusion (very rhythmic music) and the other in Canterbury (occasional vocals and some fun). About Gong : "Camembert électrique" is really canterbury, but the trilogy that followed (especially "You") is more space-rock oriented. And the Moerlen's Gong is typical fusion, more serious and less original than the Allen-era. I think some bands (Camel, Bruford, Gong) are considered as Canterbury only because they involve people that actually played in canterbury bands : Holdsworth played in Nucleus, Bruford made some sessions for NH, Dave Stewart (not the same who played with Annie Lennox) played with Egg, that's why Bruford is considered canterbury. That's the same for Camel : Richard Sinclair provided a jazzy side to Camel's music (Breathless) but Camel's interest for jazz was already initiated with Moonmadness, a change in direction that bassist Ferguson couldn't accept (which is why he left the band and Sinclair was contacted to replace him). But overall I would place Camel in the symph-prog category, as I would with Happy The Man. BTW, if Happy The Man is canterbury, then it is probably the only one non-british canterbury band and arguably the best of all. Talking about Greenslade or Colosseum II, I think these bands could easily be classified canterbury. Don't you think ? And today's metal-jazz bands such as Planet X, Liquid Tension Expeiment or Spastic Ink could also be considered canterbury or maybe metal-canterbury. ...the very thin line between jazz-fusion and canterbury. Did you hear about Pip Pyle's Equipe Out, sort of jazz-fusion with Elton Dean on saxophone ?

lucas wrote: No, it's jazz-rock. No one will convince me it's fusion.

You are hopeless!!!

Sometimes I purchase discs in a shop called "Crocodisc". They have a shop for each type of music : jazz, classical, rock in general, jazz-rock. When I go in the jazz-rock one, I find Chick Corea, Stanley Clarke, Dave Weckl, Simon Phillips, RTF, Al di Meola, Lenny White... but no Brandx, Bruford, Kenso, Zappa etc. When I go in the 'rock in general' one, I find Bruford, BrandX, Earthworks, Kenso... all filed under PROGRESSIVE ROCK. So, guys, that is in accordance with what I said previously : jazz-rock is a subgenre of jazz that includes guys like Al di Meola, Chick and all his friends, whereas jazz-fusion is a subgenre of prog that includes guys who were previously playing in prog bands. OK ?

lucas wrote: Philippe and Alex, do you think there is a difference between what is commonly termed jazz-rock and jazz-fusion ?

Please answer the question if you don't agree when I say that jazz-rock and jazz-fusion are two different genres. [don't say just 'yes' or 'no', or 'I don't agree with you' but try to explain your answer]. BTW, maybe we're too young to talk about such an item ?

lucas wrote: Philippe and Alex, do you think there is a difference between what is commonly termed jazz-rock and jazz-fusion ?

There are slight differences:

Jazz-Rock could be very vocal orientated such as: later Joni Michell, later Van Morrison, Tim Buckley, Ginger Baker's Air Force, Frank Zappa, & Traffic. Jazz-Rock even falls in the camp of pop bands such as: Blood, Sweat, & Tears & Stealy Dan. Keep in mind: Vocal orientated

Fusion is mostly instrumental based & could consist of previous musicans from the bop era jazz school. bands & musicans such as: Weather Report, Tony Williams Lifetime, Return To Forever, Al Di Meola, Mahvishnu Orchestra, & Stanley Clakre. Another thing that they have in a common is that most of the memebers of the bands I listed have performed with Miles Davis in his bop & Fusion expirments.

So therefore Jazz-Rock is a sub genre of Rock & fusion is a subgenre of Jazz.

It could become confusing, you just have to analyize & listen for yourself.