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b_olariu View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2012 at 00:04
Man, what I've started here with my search for that list. I my self don't understand what is so harmful to have that top 100 list on the front page, it was there for years and  sudden someone thinks is not ok, really strange for me.
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Tony R View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2012 at 02:07
Good grief!

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ExittheLemming View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2012 at 03:26
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

No, what you are creating here is a massive problem for yourself. One you cannot solve without full time monitoring. And that is making PA into a laughing stock if you continue down that road.

The problem is that you (= Admins) don't know the difference between a good and a bad opinion. Nobody in PA does, unless I have misread the Bible. You are basing your opinion and your decission on a value you don't know. 

It is like x (-y)=ab. How do you solve that problem is beyond me. 

Your only two solutions is to....

a. Outline the difference between a good and a bad opinion* about an object you don't know

b. Close PA to reviews done by others than approved reviewers based on a subjective selection criteria

It is not a matter of the top 100 list. It is a matter of subjective opinions being turned into facts. 

*= review 



I believe that a surfeit of poorly researched reviews that tell the reader little about what the music contained therein actually sounds like or resembles or is maybe influenced by is more likely to turn PA into a laughing stock. None of the foregoing criteria are necessarily 'subjective' by any stretch of the imagination. We want to maintain and hopefully increase our credibility within the broader progressive music community and the vast majority of those reviews that are close to  the 100 word minimum guidelines from both collabs and non collabs just don't cut it with that objective in mind. We certainly don't want to discourage reviews but we do want to encourage collabs to 'set the bar' for those who follow in their wake. (aspiring collabs) We have also discussed the possibility of incentives for quality reviews similar to those explored previously like 'review of the Month' etc (Which I believe raised the prevailing standard considerably) The Admins that you castigate so shrilly for what you perceive as being high-handed and dictatorial have to be disinterested in the opinions expressed in a review (notwithstanding the site rules for profanity and personal attacks, vulgarity etc) So why do you continue to reveal for our edification only your own confusion as to what constitutes opinion c/f information?

BTW I've never read the Bible all the way through so I'm not allowed to review itWink
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Snow Dog View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2012 at 03:43
The problem is that this decision was made and implemented without any consultation isn't it? Aren't we all working together to keep this site going? And yet those people mainly affected (the top reviewers) have to find out by suddenly noticing the omission from the home page.
Once it used to be "that's how Max wants it" trumping all arguments. Now we don't even need that.
Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2012 at 04:23
Yeah, this site's gone ever so slightly apartheid as far as decisions go.
The Progressive Rock record labels project: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85100
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2012 at 04:46
Here's some inspiration for a few of the contributors in this thread :-)
The Progressive Rock record labels project: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85100
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ExittheLemming View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2012 at 05:26
Originally posted by Windhawk Windhawk wrote:

Yeah, this site's gone ever so slightly apartheid as far as decisions go.


Emotive turn of phrase certainly. Given that this is a genre(s) defined music appreciation site, do you fear the lines of discrimination that you abhor stretch to a demarcation between what our members consider Proto, Prog related or fully fledged Prog? and (gulp) the rest?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2012 at 05:35
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Windhawk Windhawk wrote:

Yeah, this site's gone ever so slightly apartheid as far as decisions go.


Emotive turn of phrase certainly. Given that this is a genre(s) defined music appreciation site, do you fear the lines of discrimination that you abhor stretch to a demarcation between what our members consider Proto, Prog related or fully fledged Prog? and (gulp) the rest?

By apartheid I presume he means the seperation of the two classes of The Admin and The Rest Of Us. With Admin taking unilateral decisions.
Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2012 at 05:52
Originally posted by Windhawk Windhawk wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Artists and A&R people looking for reviewers can access the collab page from the front page.


They can, in theory, but for many of them that page is a wilderness they don't know how to even start navigating in. Even web-savvy artists have problems using that one as a tool.
Well, to be fair the site wasn't set up for A&R men to find Reviewers to plug their albums. Anyone can get to any Collab Profile Page from the Front Page in 2 clicks - that's better than any other review website I know of that has over 265 reviewers.
 
As for the "wilderness" of the Collab Page (!?)... I don't see how it's any different to the league table - it's a list of names - neither tell you what those people like or dislike. Any artist wanting to find a reviewer would/should/could navigate to a similar artist (hey man, we're different) and see who is reviewing them. All the league table did was filter the 265 down to 100 based upon how many reviews they'd written - for an artist or A&R man that seems to be a poor selection criteria. (That's assuming that any one bothered to scroll the inline window to see the other 65 in the list).
 
I don't see how anyone who has problems clicking on a name and reading a profile can be considered web-savvy.


Edited by Dean - February 10 2012 at 05:58


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
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Angelo View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2012 at 06:19
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

The problem is that this decision was made and implemented without any consultation isn't it? Aren't we all working together to keep this site going? And yet those people mainly affected (the top reviewers) have to find out by suddenly noticing the omission from the home page.
Once it used to be "that's how Max wants it" trumping all arguments. Now we don't even need that.

Yep. We're all working together to keep this site going, and we all have our own responsibilities in that. Be glad that this is the way things work - if everything had to be implemented through consultation and democratic voting, the number of errors, omissions, reviews, interviews and band (re)movals would go subzero within a week. Unless you are suggesting that we all get a say  in and vote on how you fix errors and omissions, Torodd publishes interviews, Bonnek redefines the PMT genre definitions, the Eclectic team adds bands etc.?

The fact that only an handful of the 265 reviewers and collaborators feel the need to comment on this might mean that some people have too much time on their hands while others carry on and do their part of keeping the site alive, doesn't it?
Even prog is rooted in the blues, at some point...
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Snow Dog View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2012 at 06:26
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

The problem is that this decision was made and implemented without any consultation isn't it? Aren't we all working together to keep this site going? And yet those people mainly affected (the top reviewers) have to find out by suddenly noticing the omission from the home page.
Once it used to be "that's how Max wants it" trumping all arguments. Now we don't even need that.

Yep. We're all working together to keep this site going, and we all have our own responsibilities in that. Be glad that this is the way things work - if everything had to be implemented through consultation and democratic voting, the number of errors, omissions, reviews, interviews and band (re)movals would go subzero within a week. Unless you are suggesting that we all get a say  in and vote on how you fix errors and omissions, Torodd publishes interviews, Bonnek redefines the PMT genre definitions, the Eclectic team adds bands etc.?

The fact that only an handful of the 265 reviewers and collaborators feel the need to comment on this might mean that some people have too much time on their hands while others carry on and do their part of keeping the site alive, doesn't it?

Not everything. It must be quite obvious I don't mean that. But major changes in the look of the site that affects certain collabs definitely yes.

I can't speak for the colabs that haven't commented.Maybe they have not looked at this thread. I care not. But it is lucky I we have time on our hands as you put it, otherwise  this site would not exist at all.

How is it when Admin get any criticism this barrier goes up? Or is it me personally "at the moment" that you have a problem with?

For my part I have no personal interest in the list. I just believe  Admin got it wrong this time.


Edited by Snow Dog - February 10 2012 at 06:28
Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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Angelo View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2012 at 06:35
Ah, glad you see the absurdity of your own reasoning. Now let me answer your question: the reason this barrier goes up is because you ask for it. No matter on what site, the admins and moderators will always get critisized for their actions, by people who are uncapable or unwilling to look at things from two different angles (their own, and the admin's). In fact, what you call a barrier are actually the arguments that we have considered in cases like this on the topic of whether something should be discussed, voted on, or simply done right away for the better of the site. In cases like this, the 'we' includes the admins as well as M@X, who's ownership of the site you seem to loathe. 

And now I suggest that any of the reviewers and collabs who want to comment on this further do so in the Collaborator zone, or I will personally suspend them for a month for violating the well known Open Letter to All Collaborators that is posted in that same zone. This discussion has moved from a question about where the list had gone to a discussion of site policies already yesterday.
Even prog is rooted in the blues, at some point...
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Angelo View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2012 at 06:36
Thread closed. Collabs can discuss further in the CZ.
Even prog is rooted in the blues, at some point...
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Jim Garten View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2012 at 07:29
Originally posted by Windhawk Windhawk wrote:

Here's some inspiration for a few of the contributors in this thread :-)



Here's some more:

Statement by the Admin Team

In particular:

Quote Since certain actions were taken a couple of days ago, there has been a considerable amount of (for want of a better word) debate as to the rights and wrongs of our actions; this is a classic case of damned if you do or damned if you don’t. It’s an unfortunate fact of life that you cannot please all the people all the time – what we do try to do however is always to act for the good of the site itself, which is what we firmly believe we have done, and we also feel the time is now right to move onward, to draw a line under recent events – to learn from the past, but not be dominated by it.

We know not everyone is happy with recent actions, and this is regrettable but unfortunately unavoidable; if any collaborator feels unable now to continue in such a role for personal reasons, we will understand, and return them to Senior Member status – we would prefer not to have to do so, but this is of course a matter for individual conscience. All we would ask is that if you choose to remain in your various teams as PRs/Collabs/SCs etc that you take notice of the content and spirit of last September’s “Open letter”


And some more:



Open letter

Thread locked again

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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