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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Major Upgrade to the Forum Engine
    Posted: February 09 2012 at 20:05
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Epignosis


I don't see this as a villainous move at all, but can we be sure that these "review mavericks" just want their names on the chart (even if they can't get theirs on there without quality reviews per the review guidelines), or is their motive something else?  Perhaps they are legitimately opinionated but do a poor job expressing their views.
Having watched this process as an Admin for the past 4 years I'm pretty confident that it is contributary. People, especially newer members, do not read Guidelines and FAQs - they follow the examples on the front page. I think there is a difference between a poor review and a poorly expressed one.


Thanks for the explanation Dean. 

Is it possible to put this little list in the CZ then?  I know the forum and database are different beasts, but it's just one fellow's suggestion.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 20:07

This was not sarcasm, Dean. I was more crying out in despair than anything else. 

What I am angry about in this day and age, 2012, is that you and the Admins does not understand the full consequence of what you are writing and what you are proposing. 





Edited by toroddfuglesteg - February 09 2012 at 20:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 20:10
Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Epignosis


I don't see this as a villainous move at all, but can we be sure that these "review mavericks" just want their names on the chart (even if they can't get theirs on there without quality reviews per the review guidelines), or is their motive something else?  Perhaps they are legitimately opinionated but do a poor job expressing their views.
Having watched this process as an Admin for the past 4 years I'm pretty confident that it is contributary. People, especially newer members, do not read Guidelines and FAQs - they follow the examples on the front page. I think there is a difference between a poor review and a poorly expressed one.


Thanks for the explanation Dean. 

Is it possible to put this little list in the CZ then?  I know the forum and database are different beasts, but it's just one fellow's suggestion.

I think the list could be located elsewhere, even in the database, just not onthe Front Page.
 
I also think (this is me personally, not me as an Admin) that we should give recognition to good reviews on the Front Page, perhaps a re-instatement of review of the month or some such


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 20:18
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg

This was not sarcasm, Dean. I was more, much more crying in despair than anything else. 

What I am angry about in this day and age, 2012, is that you and the Admins does not understand the full consequence of what you are writing and what you are proposing. Think, think, think.

And when you are getting a technical solution, you don't want a solution. Badger, my office is getting flooded. Jump in the dingy boat, cat.   

Then I apologise for reading it as sarcasm, because that's how it appeared to me in the rhetoric of early posts, and with the prefix of "highly" I made an erroneous assumption.
 
Thanks for the advice - I think long and hard before every post I make here, which is why this ran for several pages before I responded.
 
I repeat - your technical solution would cause more problems than it fixes, it is also one that would require full-time monitoring, which we do not have the resources to manage.


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 20:32

No, what you are creating here is a massive problem for yourself. One you cannot solve without full time monitoring. And that is making PA into a laughing stock if you continue down that road.

The problem is that you (= Admins) don't know the difference between a good and a bad opinion. Nobody in PA does, unless I have misread the Bible. You are basing your opinion and your decission on a value you don't know. 

It is like x (-y)=ab. How do you solve that problem is beyond me. 

Your only two solutions is to....

a. Outline the difference between a good and a bad opinion* about an object you don't know

b. Close PA to reviews done by others than approved reviewers based on a subjective selection criteria

It is not a matter of the top 100 list. It is a matter of subjective opinions being turned into facts. 

*= review 



Edited by toroddfuglesteg - February 09 2012 at 20:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 20:40
Some possible solutions then, to try to be constructive.

The least important bit - the list itself - could be reinstated in the bottom right column of the "About Progarchives" tab. That should cater nicely for those who enjoy tracking events on it.

As far as highlighting subjectively good reviews go, seaparating the front page into two parts, where the upper one shows prog reviewers/collabs reviews and the lower other reviews might be a possibility. Not without negative side effects and certainly with some fallout effects, but it should be doable in code and automatic. If all prog reviewers/collabs fall within such a subjective definition that is. Not a perfect solution by any means but one viable and doable if this is a high priority issue.

An easily visible list of reviewers of some sort should be available on the frontpage, as a replacement for the quick lookup the quantity list provided to artists (and, in some cases, labels). Or at least an easily visible link to such a list, understandable as such by someone looking at the webpage for the very first time.

At last, unless plans are afoot for the freed up space in the right column on the frontpage, expand the album addition column to cover 10 rather than the current 5 latest new album additions. Until a better use is found for that space.
The Progressive Rock record labels project: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85100
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 20:41
Originally posted by Dean

Dealing with flood-reviews, poor reviews and reviews that don't "talk in some detail about each album" on a one-to-one basis is reactive and time consuming and does not stop the problem. It is better to be proactive and not encourage them.
 
No one can guess or predict whether there is any likelihood that this will not have any positive affect on the problem. Maybe it won't, but we think it will and only time will tell for sure.
 


We'll have to agree to disagree....on both of your assertions there.  So be it.  But did I mention this sucks?  Wink


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 20:42
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg

No, what you are creating here is a massive problem for yourself. One you cannot solve without full time monitoring. And that is making PA into a laughing stock if you continue down that road.

The problem is that you (= Admins) don't know the difference between a good and a bad opinion. Nobody in PA does, unless I have misread the Bible. You are basing your opinion and your decission on a value you don't know. 

It is like x (-y)=ab. How do you solve that problem is beyond me. 

Your only two solutions is to....

a. Outline the difference between a good and a bad opinion

b. Close PA to reviews done by others than approved reviewers based on a subjective selection criteria

It is not a matter of the top 100 list. It is a matter of subjective opinions being turned into facts. And that is really bad for any society. 

Erm... first off - this is not about good and bad opinion. Opinons are subjective that is a fact. This is not about opinions or opinions of opinions.
 
Have you not read some of the reviews that we get here - the ones that fill up the reviews reporting and discussion thread? This is not subjective and it's not about judging peoples opinions - opinions can only be judged if the reviews contain opinions - and some of these reveiws don't have any opinions in them at all - some of them don't even mention any of the music on the albums they claim to be a review of. That's not subjective, that's objective.
 
Please do not tell me you think those reviews are "good" and do not reflect badly on the PA by their presence.
 
However, that's not the issue here - removing the Top 100 reviewers list from the front page does not make any subjective judgement about the content of the reviews by those collaborators.


Edited by Dean - February 10 2012 at 08:08


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 20:43
Originally posted by Finnforest

Originally posted by Dean

Dealing with flood-reviews, poor reviews and reviews that don't "talk in some detail about each album" on a one-to-one basis is reactive and time consuming and does not stop the problem. It is better to be proactive and not encourage them.
 
No one can guess or predict whether there is any likelihood that this will not have any positive affect on the problem. Maybe it won't, but we think it will and only time will tell for sure.
 


We'll have to agree to disagree....on both of your assertions there.  So be it.  But did I mention this sucks?  Wink
Yes you have, but you haven't said why.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 20:46
I have.  


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 20:49
Originally posted by Finnforest

Originally posted by Dean

Dealing with flood-reviews, poor reviews and reviews that don't "talk in some detail about each album" on a one-to-one basis is reactive and time consuming and does not stop the problem. It is better to be proactive and not encourage them.
 
No one can guess or predict whether there is any likelihood that this will not have any positive affect on the problem. Maybe it won't, but we think it will and only time will tell for sure.
 


We'll have to agree to disagree....on both of your assertions there.  So be it.  But did I mention this sucks?  Wink


It's a bit like trying to prevent freeloaders on the train by removing the time tables from all the stations I think. But an action has been taken and as all such actions it won't be reversed. No matter what we say or do. That's the way this site works, and one either has to live with it and try to make the best out of it, or move on to pastures somewhat less autocratic.
The Progressive Rock record labels project: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85100
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 20:51
Oh dear.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 20:51
Originally posted by Windhawk

Some possible solutions then, to try to be constructive.

The least important bit - the list itself - could be reinstated in the bottom right column of the "About Progarchives" tab. That should cater nicely for those who enjoy tracking events on it.

As far as highlighting subjectively good reviews go, seaparating the front page into two parts, where the upper one shows prog reviewers/collabs reviews and the lower other reviews might be a possibility. Not without negative side effects and certainly with some fallout effects, but it should be doable in code and automatic. If all prog reviewers/collabs fall within such a subjective definition that is. Not a perfect solution by any means but one viable and doable if this is a high priority issue.

An easily visible list of reviewers of some sort should be available on the frontpage, as a replacement for the quick lookup the quantity list provided to artists (and, in some cases, labels). Or at least an easily visible link to such a list, understandable as such by someone looking at the webpage for the very first time.

At last, unless plans are afoot for the freed up space in the right column on the frontpage, expand the album addition column to cover 10 rather than the current 5 latest new album additions. Until a better use is found for that space.
Thanks for being constructive Olav. I'm sorry I'm going to have to be brief now as it's very late.
 
Personally I'm not in favour of segregating Collab and non-Collab reviews - we do this on the album pages and I (for one) don't like it. However, I do like the idea of splitting the page in two,perhaps with some "reviews of the week" by sub genre or some such in the lower half.
 
Artists and A&R people looking for reviewers can access the collab page from the front page. Listing them on the front page itself gives no indication of which subgenre those reviewers are best suited too - sending me a JR/F album would not be a good move for example. An alternative suggestion perhaps would be to categorise Reviewers by subgenre like the pie chart on each member page - quite how that could be represented is another problem (but a high-class one perhaps).
 
I like the idea of boosting the 5 latest to 10 latest releases.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 20:54

Edit:

I am sorry that I raised this matter in the first place and I am sorry that the concerns I raised months ago has not reached the Admins when raised in CZ. Raising this matter some hours ago has just proven that my personality has a number of fatal flaws which makes my life extreme difficult, if not impossible to continue.





Edited by toroddfuglesteg - February 10 2012 at 02:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 20:57
Take it to the CZ please Torodd.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 21:02
Originally posted by Windhawk

Originally posted by Finnforest

Originally posted by Dean

Dealing with flood-reviews, poor reviews and reviews that don't "talk in some detail about each album" on a one-to-one basis is reactive and time consuming and does not stop the problem. It is better to be proactive and not encourage them.
 
No one can guess or predict whether there is any likelihood that this will not have any positive affect on the problem. Maybe it won't, but we think it will and only time will tell for sure.
 


We'll have to agree to disagree....on both of your assertions there.  So be it.  But did I mention this sucks?  Wink


It's a bit like trying to prevent freeloaders on the train by removing the time tables from all the stations I think. But an action has been taken and as all such actions it won't be reversed. No matter what we say or do. That's the way this site works, and one either has to live with it and try to make the best out of it, or move on to pastures somewhat less autocratic.



Pretty true Olav....I'm just frustrated by some things like everyone else, but this isn't the place or time.....usually I'm the guy sticking up for the site and rah rah rah when other people take shots at it.....guess I finally had enough.  It doesn't much matter.  I expressed my opinion here, and to Max earlier before I understood what had happened.  It's their site.  If they think this action is helping, more power to em.  I think it hurts, morale, at how it was handled, and hurts the site by losing a neat front page feature.  I'll leave it at that. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 21:05
Originally posted by Dean

Artists and A&R people looking for reviewers can access the collab page from the front page.


They can, in theory, but for many of them that page is a wilderness they don't know how to even start navigating in. Even web-savvy artists have problems using that one as a tool.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 21:07
Originally posted by Windhawk

Originally posted by Dean

Artists and A&R people looking for reviewers can access the collab page from the front page.


They can, in theory, but for many of them that page is a wilderness they don't know how to even start navigating in. Even web-savvy artists have problems using that one as a tool.


I know at least two people who were turned off from this site when I recommended it just because of the home page.  Now, I personally love it, but I'm used to it.  First-time visitors may be overwhelmed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 21:09
Originally posted by Finnforest


Pretty true Olav....I'm just frustrated by some things like everyone else, but this isn't the place or time.....usually I'm the guy sticking up for the site and rah rah rah when other people take shots at it.....guess I finally had enough.  It doesn't much matter.  I expressed my opinion here, and to Max earlier before I understood what had happened.  It's their site.  If they think this action is helping, more power to em.  I think it hurts, morale, at how it was handled, and hurts the site by losing a neat front page feature.  I'll leave it at that. 


Guess I've been missing out on a few things after taking a back seat role on this site...and that what I have missed has been to my advantage. Incidentally, I think there's room for a hard working reviewer at a certain site I'm writing for *chuckles*
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2012 at 21:45
Communism is alive and wellLOL or should i say democracy is dead,at least here at PA. Sorry that would imply we were actually all a team here to begin with.Sure i'm going to come off sounding like an ass because i'm at the top of the list but this sucks.And to say having this list here on the front page is harmful or a negative thing is a joke.Only at PA.
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