Forum Home Forum Home > Other music related lounges > General Music Discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Getting estranged from prog
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedGetting estranged from prog

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 56789 10>
Author
Message
Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 5082
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2009 at 01:46
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


as to limits as I already said to Mike: "do you really have no limits yourself?. do you simply accept anything"? this is first of all very doubtful, and second it would really be arbitrariness.
everyone has their likes and dislikes, and that's fine with me you are no better or no worse, just because you happen to like a certain kind of music which I don't like. I am pretty sure that there is a lot of music that I like which you would dislike, be it that you can't stand the sound of a certain instrument or whatever. no-one likes everything


Of course there are things that I don't like ... I never said that I simply accept anything, I even directly objected to that post. Do you really have to resort to such means ... are you that desperate?Wink

I just said that I don't impose such broad and unusual limits as you do. You, as a drummer, reject a valid technique of drumming. I, as a guitarist, would never reject a valid technique of guitar playing. I might not like all techniques equally, but I wouldn't reject a song just because of a certain technique.

I value music over technique.Smile
Back to Top
BaldJean View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Online
Points: 7491
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2009 at 02:11
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


as to limits as I already said to Mike: "do you really have no limits yourself?. do you simply accept anything"? this is first of all very doubtful, and second it would really be arbitrariness.
everyone has their likes and dislikes, and that's fine with me you are no better or no worse, just because you happen to like a certain kind of music which I don't like. I am pretty sure that there is a lot of music that I like which you would dislike, be it that you can't stand the sound of a certain instrument or whatever. no-one likes everything


Of course there are things that I don't like ... I never said that I simply accept anything, I even directly objected to that post. Do you really have to resort to such means ... are you that desperate?Wink

I just said that I don't impose such broad and unusual limits as you do. You, as a drummer, reject a valid technique of drumming. I, as a guitarist, would never reject a valid technique of guitar playing. I might not like all techniques equally, but I wouldn't reject a song just because of a certain technique.

I value music over technique.Smile

neither did I generally reject double bass-drumming; I just do reject it in more cases than you. it is simply unnecessary in most cases from my musical point of view, that's all.
and what "broad and unusual limits" do I impose? you sound as if I have dozens of liimts, which is plain nonsense. on the contrary, I welcome to overstep boundaries.
by the way: I am a keyboarder; Friede is the drummer. she rejects double bass-drumming too (with exceptions also), but for slightly different reasons.
and I am not desperate at all.; why should I?


A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo pricipiis obsta
Back to Top
BaldFriede View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 7709
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2009 at 02:38
It is I who reject double bass-drumming on principle, simply because of the fact that anyone can sound good (at least in the ears of a non-drummer) when using two bass drums. Just create a bass-drum thunderstorm, and everyone will go "aw". That does not mean there are no excellent drummers who use double bass-drumming, but it is and remains nothing but a gimmick, and I will stick to that. Call it a quirk if you like, I don't mind.
Except for that "quirk", however, I am very open-minded. By the way: If a musical situation arises where the gimmick of double bass-drumming is adequate I am all for it;, that's what gimmicks are there for. So far I have only heard one example of that though (and sadly have forgotten who it was).
You would be amazed what a good drummer can do with a single bass-drum. The need to use two has never arisen for me, and I think it is not likely that it will. And I will definitely not add another bass-drum to my kit just because I might use it some day. The hi-hat as counterpart to the bass-drum is much more expressive.


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
Back to Top
Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 5082
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2009 at 03:29
^ this is simply beyond ridiculous. I'll say only this: It's neither a gimmick nor a quirk. There are rhythmic patterns which you need two bass drums for (or at least two pedals) ... it's as simple as that. Such patterns occur most frequently in metal, but also in Jazz. Many months ago one of you two compared double bass to a "duck quack". IMO that's a very specious analogy ... conduct a poll if you want, but I'm very sure that while most people would agree that the duck quack is a gimmick/quirk, but not double bass drumming. And by "people" I mean musicians ... people who know what they're talking about.

BTW: Double bass drummers also use the hi-hat ... just FYI, in case you didn't know.
Back to Top
BaldFriede View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 7709
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2009 at 03:33
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ this is simply beyond ridiculous. I'll say only this: It's neither a gimmick nor a quirk. There are rhythmic patterns which you need two bass drums for (or at least two pedals) ... it's as simple as that. Such patterns occur most frequently in metal, but also in Jazz. Many months ago one of you two compared double bass to a "duck quack". IMO that's a very specious analogy ... conduct a poll if you want, but I'm very sure that while most people would agree that the duck quack is a gimmick/quirk, but not double bass drumming. And by "people" I mean musicians ... people who know what they're talking about.

BTW: Double bass drummers also use the hi-hat ... just FYI, in case you didn't know.

Nonsense, you can play the same patterns using a hi-hat and a bass drum. You don't need two bass drums for that. They will sound completely different though, and much more interesting with the hi-hat being involved.


Edited by BaldFriede - January 15 2009 at 03:36


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
Back to Top
Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 5082
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2009 at 03:54
^ if they sound completely different, they're not really the same patterns ... rhythmically, yes, but not if you look at the complete picture. The whole point about double bass drumming is that it's the same drum (sound) playing those fast notes.

But I'm curious ... how would you change a typical double bass pattern so that it can be played with one bass drum and hi-hat?

http://www.myspace.com/sonataarctica

Maybe we could use "The Cage" as an example ... it's a textbook example of metal double bass drumming.Smile
Back to Top
Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2009 at 04:03
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

It is I who reject double bass-drumming on principle, simply because of the fact that anyone can sound good (at least in the ears of a non-drummer) when using two bass drums.



I'm a non drummer, but I still think many people can sound like absolute garbage by over doing the double bass thing.
I've also heard a lot of people sound like garbage because they can't use the double bass drums in time.

So no, not everyone sounds good when using double bass drums.
I can tell the difference between when it is being over used and when it is being used in a more creative manner to add in intricate rhythms, so no, we aren't ALL instantly wowed by double bass drums.
Back to Top
Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2009 at 10:38
To use Double bass Drums you have to be an expert in rythym and percussion.
 
I agree that drummers than do not know how to use the double bass drum (DBD) have sound horrible and stupidy, but for those who actually knows how to use, this sound really great.
 
But in the topic i have to say that i love the DBD from the drummers who know how to use.
 


Back to Top
Nuke View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 25 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 271
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2009 at 14:46
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Nuke Nuke wrote:

Well, to go along with the double bass thing, even though it is increasingly popular, you are still going to find plenty of people who don't like the double bass. So you are right that there is plenty of modern usic without it, but I predict it will continue to shrink. My roommate despised double-bass drumming too. The thing was, he was totally stuck in the oldies. I think part of the reason he hated the double bass was because he worshipped john bonham, and john had eschewed the double bass because he drowned out the rest of the band. Of course, metal bands figured out the obvious solution to that one: make the rest of the band louder Tongue. Oh, and just to be clear, the double bass isn't limited to prog metal by any means. Lots of times I hear it used very subtly and tastefully in other styles of music. It really seems to have found a place in funk, for example. 

To answer your question, I have no limits. I will listen to anything, and I will judge it on its merits, not its flaws. I listen for the artistry, the thought process that went into making the song, the work involved. What I mean to say is that I care about the art, not the medium. If the art is expressed is country or jazz or metal, whether it used the double bass, the mellotron, or protools, it makes no difference to me, as long as it is art. I do have quality control, I won't listen to nickelback, but it has nothing to do with their style, nor the techniques they use. So my answer to you is, that as long as it is creative and thought out, I will like it. The more creative and thought out, the more I will like it.

Finally, I can't really defend prog metal. I spend too much time listening to *real* metal to know whether most porg metal is harmonically retrograde or not Wink


nonsense,  of course you have your limits, else your taste is totally arbitrary. saying that you like "all music which is creative and thought out" in essence boils down to no less than saying that you are the final instance to decide which kind of music is creative and thought out, which is plain absurd. there is a lot of creative and thought out music I don't like at all, but at least I grant the artist that their music is still "creative and thought out". what you want to say is that you have no predefined limits. that is true with me too; I did not decide against double-bass drumming without listening to it first..but I fail to see its merits; it sounds overly pompous.
as for your prediction that double-bass drumming will become a kind of standard: very doubtful, since it is not a recent invention at all; it has been around for decades and was even used by some early jazz drummers already. it is a current fad because prog-metal is doing comparatively well right now, but fads come and go.
anyway, you would be surprised what a drummer who is really worth his salt can do with a single bass drum; you really don't need it

Well,yes, I do not have predefined limits, but I also mean that I do not reject any form of technique or style. I don't care if it's chipmunk vocals over double-bass drumming produced half on protools and half on a dirty 8-track and artificially sped up, if it has merits I will respect it for it's merits. It's fine to say that you don't see the merits in something, but there is more to music that has double bass drumming than the double bass drumming, so it isn't fair to dislike music just because it has double-bass drumming if it has other merits. 

And on to the drumming, double-bass drumming is integral to lots of modern styles. It is nearly impossible to play modern metal without the double bass drum, so the double bass drum is not going away (to be fair, I've seen some single-bass metal drummers, so it is possible). I know that it is possible to drum amazingly with only one bass. I myself am an amateur drummer and I only have one bass pedal, and I'm not even close to having explored all the limits of my set with one bass pedal. We haven't explored all the limits of gregorian chant either, we really don't need harmony.

Back to Top
Nuke View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 25 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 271
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2009 at 14:57
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ if they sound completely different, they're not really the same patterns ... rhythmically, yes, but not if you look at the complete picture. The whole point about double bass drumming is that it's the same drum (sound) playing those fast notes.

But I'm curious ... how would you change a typical double bass pattern so that it can be played with one bass drum and hi-hat?

http://www.myspace.com/sonataarctica

Maybe we could use "The Cage" as an example ... it's a textbook example of metal double bass drumming.Smile

Well, for that song you could maybe do really fast rhythm guitar and bass guitar to replace the double bass and then throw in some really cool hi-hat patterns. With a lot of compositional effort, I think you could actually make that one sound slightly better without the double bass. 

Back to Top
Trademark View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2009 at 15:18
 There have been some interesting points raised here about what constitutes "open-mindedness"or being "limited" in our musical options,  particularly where this DBD thing comes up.  The consensus opinion seems to be "I like it and if you don't you're closed-minded about it", or "If you don't like it you just haven't heard enough of it or haven't heard so and so play" etc.. 

The offshoot of this opinion voiced in one way or another in many posts here is that is demonstrates the very closed-mindedness it criticizes by not allowing another point of view to be equally valid.  Jean and Friede don't like DBD.  This has been well established, they've given reasons for it and have, by all appearances, explored much music using that particular technique and found it not to their liking.  Liking or disliking an artist or particular technique, which is what this is really about (well that and everyone being required to agree with Mike no matter what Wink), is a personal choice which cannot be "wrong" or "right" per se, only different.  Disliking an artist, genre or technique does not make one closed-minded or limited in their appreciation for music.

Jean's process in reaching her decision of personal taste about DBD seems to me to be the exact opposite of "limiting" or "closed-minded".  She investigated, tried several different products using that method and didn't enjoy the results.  I've done the same thing with several genres and, not to open an old wound, Prog Metal is one I've spent a lot of time and money on and at the end of about 4 years and more than 65 cd's purchased, found I simply don't care for.  The reasons may or not be ones that others will see validity in, but they are my reasons and I simply don't see the point in waiting for that one magical experience in that genre  any longer.   I've done the same recently with RIO/ avant.  I listened to 40- 50 different releases and found most of it not to my taste.  With avant though, I have found 4 or 5 bands whose stuff I'll want to listen to more than once.  That's about 10% compared to Prog metal's score of only one band (Fate's Warning) out of about 30 bands I have heard being even tolerable to my ears.  So I see some purpose in carefully continuing to search for new music in RIO/avant when the mood strikes me (I'm in a decidedly non-prog frame of mind at the moment.  Just got Ry Cooder's newest , "I-Flathead" and am really having a great time with it.)

This process of investigation, (trial and error if you will) makes me the opposite of "limited" or closed-minded".  But at the same time the purpose of investigation is to find what you like and since no one likes everything, some things must be rejected.  If one can identify things that don't work for their taste, it makes the odds of successful investigation higher and that's not limiting, it's LIBERATING.  

Mike and Hughes and some others here are metal guys somehow by nature.  I personally can't see how anyone over the age of 15 can listen to the stuff with a straight face, but that's just me.  Every time LaBrie opens his mouth I just crack up laughing, but then my wife feels the same way about Fish and Tom Waits so....   If an artist or technique is rejected without investigation that could be viewed as "limiting" one's options, if it is investigated and only after careful consideration is rejected, it is the opposite and that's what I see Jean as having done.  Saying "because I don't reject DBD I have broader taste than you" is really just childish.  It has no possible basis in fact.  I have a little over 4,500 CDs in my collection (42,000 songs if you go the itunes route; 220 GB of music encoded at 128kb so all I can say is, "Oh yeah?, well my dad can beat up your dad!"  Angry  I'm not limited in my options because I have found out for sure that I don't like PM or because I think Mike "Pottymouth" Portnoy (Prog's own armpit farting 5th grader) is an idiot.  I've simply opened up new avenues to explore and closed off the ones that don't lead me anywhere, thereby preventing a waste of resources (time and money) that can be put to better use.

I mean, if every time you eat at McDonalds you throw up, sooner or later you'll decide not to eat there anymore.  It doesn't make you close-minded about food or even a particiular method of preparing the food, it's just that McDonald's doesn't agree with you.  I, myself, am lactose intolerant so that probably explains my aversion to PM, all that cheese just makes my stomach hurt. LOL


Edited by Trademark - January 15 2009 at 15:24
Back to Top
Trademark View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2009 at 15:28
Originally posted by Nuke Nuke wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ if they sound completely different, they're not really the same patterns ... rhythmically, yes, but not if you look at the complete picture. The whole point about double bass drumming is that it's the same drum (sound) playing those fast notes.

But I'm curious ... how would you change a typical double bass pattern so that it can be played with one bass drum and hi-hat?

http://www.myspace.com/sonataarctica

Maybe we could use "The Cage" as an example ... it's a textbook example of metal double bass drumming.Smile

Well, for that song you could maybe do really fast rhythm guitar and bass guitar to replace the double bass and then throw in some really cool hi-hat patterns. With a lot of compositional effort, I think you could actually make that one sound slightly better without the double bass. 



That particular tune would be a good deal better off if the whole band were sacked and it was done at a slower tempo with just an acoustic guitar and some hand percussion.  

Back to Top
Henry Plainview View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2009 at 16:04
Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:


That particular tune would be a good deal better off if the whole band were sacked and it was done at a slower tempo with just an acoustic guitar and some hand percussion.  

Hahaha, I don't even like metal very much, but you're such a damn hippy. ;-)
if you own a sodastream i hate you
Back to Top
Nuke View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 25 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 271
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2009 at 16:31
Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

 Blah Blah Blah ... Disliking an artist, genre or technique does not make one closed-minded or limited in their appreciation for music... Blah Blah Blah

(no insult intended, but people can read it just 2 posts up, so it's wasteful to copypaste the whole thing.)

Oh boy, this one is hard to bite off, but since I disagreed I had to reply Tongue. I think that disliking a specific thing does limit you. I think disliking anything limits you. I do not dislike music. I like some music less than other music, but I accept that everything has some amount of merit. When I listen to music, I don't get bent out of shape over what I think is bad, but rather I actively seek out what is good. I leave any biases at the door when I listen to a piece. That said, I definitely do have biases, certain things I like more than other things, and that comes into play when I select new music for sure, but even at that point, I often will turn on radio and listen to the random crap it spews out, even pop, country and rap, and I will enjoy it at least to some degree. I seriously like britney spears, think of me what you will Embarrassed. Unlike you, I am a connissuer of cheese, and I find La Brie to be delicious Big smile (in all seriousness though, prog metal a la dream theater is one of my less favorite types of metal or prog for that mater)

Back to Top
Trademark View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2009 at 16:37
 
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:


That particular tune would be a good deal better off if the whole band were sacked and it was done at a slower tempo with just an acoustic guitar and some hand percussion.  

Hahaha, I don't even like metal very much, but you're such a damn hippy. ;-)

ClapClapClap

Thanks Henry.  It's too true.  But it's just such a nice little folk song at heart on top of which they piled every metal cliche known to man.  Made me laugh.

And Nuke, you basically said the same thing I said, just with fewer words.  Listen to everything, focus on what you like, leave what you don't like alone.

Back to Top
Trademark View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2009 at 18:56
Had to listen to the Sonata Arctica again just to be sure.  Sounds like someone put John Sebastian's balls in a vise and squeezed them till he shrieked.  Hilarious stuff, but there's a nice little tune hiding in there.  Hand that one off to Richard Thompson or John Hiatt to see what it really is dying to be.

Here's another example of a song going straight from the Gawdawful original to great just based on the arrangement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT4AeXroWyI

My new motto: Sack the band and hire a professional.  LOL


Edited by Trademark - January 15 2009 at 19:12
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 7550
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2009 at 01:21
I agree with the gist of Trademark's long, well thought out post.  There is nothing wrong in rejecting some genres or even techniques of performing instruments  -even if they may be contemporarily in vogue and therefore shut you off from a lot of music that's at the point sought after.  As I said with that example of deathgrowls, even the so-called open minded crowd have biases they can't and don't want to overcome. It's ok, it's human tendency. Besides, what broader tastes or limits are we speaking of here? It's all relative. Even after rejecting double bass drumming, BaldJean would have still listened to hell lot of music and would continue to do so.  One lifetime is not enough to explore all the great music that's out there, so being blindsided to some parts of the musical ocean is par for the course. 

Also, having a broader or narrower taste does not entail victory or defeat for anyone, there is no victory or defeat in music, you listen to random sounds and they make sense to you and maybe not to somebody else. As you get more experienced with appreciating music, you are able to rationalize to a large extent why you like some sounds and why not some others, but the point is, you still react to it, it arouses emotion within you and that's what it boils down to at the heart of it.  I also don't see much point in attempting to negate this emotional reaction with the aim of seeing merit in music that you are wholly uncomfortable with, you could say that you are opening your mind to different approaches or that you are simply forcing yourself to like it.  My family loves bitter groud preparations and I hate it but I would rather have rice with some vegetable curry than not. So I have learnt to gulp the poison pill just to humour my mother more than anything; I am clear that given a choice I would rather not have to eat it at all.  My approach in music is pretty much the same; maybe I can live with some albums now that I simply did not like right from the word go but I would rather not listen to it anyway.
Back to Top
Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 5082
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2009 at 01:33
Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

 There have been some interesting points raised here about what constitutes "open-mindedness"or being "limited" in our musical options,  particularly where this DBD thing comes up.  The consensus opinion seems to be "I like it and if you don't you're closed-minded about it", or "If you don't like it you just haven't heard enough of it or haven't heard so and so play" etc..


I never said something like "I like it and if you don't you're closed-minded about it". Everybody's free to like or not like whatever they want. But there's a difference between not liking something and dismissing any possibility that it might be any good.

BTW: It's not like I love double bass drumming "no matter what". Whether I like something *always* depends on the particular song. I think that's also the basic difference between me and BaldFriede: I place the song over the technique.
Back to Top
Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 5082
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2009 at 01:36
Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

  (well that and everyone being required to agree with Mike no matter what Wink)


Dead

Those are the times when I wish that I would have never begun posting here. Every once in a while, someone will come and twist and bend your words ... I wonder why people are doing this. Do you have nothing else to do than to bad mouth people?
Back to Top
Trademark View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2009 at 06:37
Cry  Somebody call the Waaahhhmbulance.  
Really Mike, 3 years or so of having these little debates with you puts this one solidly in the truth column.  Is it still "bad-mouthing" if its true?

" I never said something like "I like it and if you don't you're closed-minded about it".

I was referring to the general tone of a significant number of posts in the thread not to anything specific that you said, If I was unclear about that I'm sorry.  

But you did say
"I just think that I'm broadening my horizon more than you do, because I impose fewer "hard" limits (like instruments/sounds or techniques) on what I'm listening to. You may be broadening your horizon, but within a (from my point of view) limited scope. "

And this, while using different words has EXACTLY that same meaning as this: "I like it and if you don't you're closed-minded about it."

It also implies YOUR own "correct" attitude is superior to anyone else's who does not share your point of view.  The implication that if we don't see it your way, we're wrong is crystal clear.  I'm perfecty happy to disagree with someone (ask Ivan LOL), but I won't stand for having my opinions invalidated in that way.


Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 56789 10>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.676 seconds.