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Topic ClosedGetting estranged from prog

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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Getting estranged from prog
    Posted: January 16 2009 at 06:49
^ not at all. She's not simply saying "I don't like double bass drumming", she says that it's a ridiculous thing to do (as a drummer), or to take seriously (as a listener). That's insulting IMO ... if you can't agree then maybe I'm expecting too much of you (you called Mike Portnoy an idiot a few posts ago ... clearly you have no problem with insulting people).

I would not call someone close-minded just because they don't like double-bass drumming. But I would call someone close-minded who thinks that everyone who likes double-bass drumming has bad taste.
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Trademark View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2009 at 08:37
How is that insulting?  I honestly don't get that at all.  It's one person's opinion and nothing more.  Why do you take offense at an opinion?  Are you taking it as a threat or a challenge to your own opinion?  I don't see it that way, but I suppose you might.  If you see life ( or at least this forum) that way, where everything and everyone presents a challenge or threat to your opinions,  it might explain the "my opinion is "righter" than your opinion" tone of many of your posts.  

In any case, Mike Portnoy IS an idiot.  He proves it every time someone puts a microphone in front of him. Maybe he's only an idiot in public, but I doubt it,  This still begs an answer to the real important question, " Is it an insult if it's true?"  People say George Bush is an idiot and no one sees it as an insult, why not?  Because it's true.  Barak Obama is black.  Is that an insult?  BaldJean is bald.  Is that an insult?  You're German.  Is that an insult?  
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2009 at 08:55
LOL I honestly don't have time for this. Why don't we let the others decide which one of us is right and then move on? I definitely have more idiotic stuff to do ...
LOL
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Nuke View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2009 at 09:08
Originally posted by rogerthat


As you get more experienced with appreciating music, you are able to rationalize to a large extent why you like some sounds and why not some others, but the point is, you still react to it, it arouses emotion within you and that's what it boils down to at the heart of it.  I also don't see much point in attempting to negate this emotional reaction with the aim of seeing merit in music that you are wholly uncomfortable with, you could say that you are opening your mind to different approaches or that you are simply forcing yourself to like it. 

I really don't see how the aim of finding merit in music you are uncomfortable with negates your emotional reaction. Back a few months ago, I decided to listen to 12 tone music, and I was very uncomfortable with it. If I had your attitude, I would have given up, but I didn't. I listened to the schoenberg violin concerto several times, and each time I listened to it, I discovered more to like about it, until finally it became one of my favorite songs. There was no "negation of the emotional reaction" or whatever. That said, I don't regularly force myself to listen to music I am uncomfortable with, but it is a good thing to do once in a while.

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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2009 at 09:16
Clap Agree 100%. For example, when I first heard them, I couldn't tolerate Opeth because of the vocals. Eventually though, I developed a taste for their music, and that in turn opened the door for further explorations in Death/Black Metal. I don't think that this will always happen ... but it can.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2009 at 09:56
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak

^ not at all. She's not simply saying "I don't like double bass drumming", she says that it's a ridiculous thing to do (as a drummer), or to take seriously (as a listener). That's insulting IMO ... if you can't agree then maybe I'm expecting too much of you (you called Mike Portnoy an idiot a few posts ago ... clearly you have no problem with insulting people).

I would not call someone close-minded just because they don't like double-bass drumming. But I would call someone close-minded who thinks that everyone who likes double-bass drumming has bad taste.
 
I like DBD, so i have bad taste???LOLWink


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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2009 at 10:23
Originally posted by Nuke

 

I really don't see how the aim of finding merit in music you are uncomfortable with negates your emotional reaction. Back a few months ago, I decided to listen to 12 tone music, and I was very uncomfortable with it. If I had your attitude, I would have given up, but I didn't. I listened to the schoenberg violin concerto several times, and each time I listened to it, I discovered more to like about it, until finally it became one of my favorite songs. There was no "negation of the emotional reaction" or whatever. That said, I don't regularly force myself to listen to music I am uncomfortable with, but it is a good thing to do once in a while.


But you wouldn't  have revisited it if it did not at all intrigue you at all at any level, is it not?  There has to be some emotional connection right from inception, otherwise it's rare that music you found absolutely deadpan and boring turned out to be super exciting - it is in such cases that developing a comfort level after many listens can be said to be forcing oneself to like it.  Again, there may be exceptions, but they don't make the rule. When I first listened to Gentle Giant, I was like, "What the hell!" All the same, I thought, "Damn, this is interesting" and I kept coming back till I liked it, song in question being "Experience".  My first extreme metal song was Raining Blood and I was flabbergasted to put it mildly by the frenetic activity encapsulated in a peak of about two minutes, but I sensed the drama lurking beneath the apparent chaos.  I am certain that if I had - like the majority of people - thought it to be utter noise garbage, I would have never become an extreme metal fan.  If there' s nothing to excite my curiousity first time around, there's not much incentive for me to return and like I said earlier, there's heaps of music to be discovered, who cares if I am "judgmental" about a few bands, so be it, I can live with it.  If I were a professional musician, I would however look at music more from an "investigative" angle, expose myself to unfamiliar genres just to pick up new ideas; as it is now, I look at it only from the perspective of appreciation and it looks to me as if my approach is reasonable. If it's not, I couldn't care less about it anyway.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2009 at 11:02
Hi,
 
So sad that some spammers can actually kill a thread that ... for all intents and purposes is actually really good for anyone that enjoys listening to music ... most of us don't have a problem with liking and appreciating a few different things ... at all.
 
Can we banish those folks to the Metallica-wish-you-were-prog thread instead? They really don't belong here.
 
Thx
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2009 at 11:27
"Why don't we let the others decide which one of us is right and then move on"

This illustrates precisely the point I made earlier that you took offense to.  For me it has nothing whatsoever to do with "being right", and everything to do with saying what I happen to believe is true and hearing what others think.  This whole issue is a subjective one, there can be no right.  Where actual issues of fact are concerned its a different story.  Bit this It's about discussion and an exchange of views (opinions).  For you, Mike, it seems that you are concerned more with "winning" or "being right" than with simply stating your views and accepting the views of others, be it about double bass drumming tagging or anything else.  With you it seems to be agree or be wrong, win or lose and its kind of sad.




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Nuke View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2009 at 11:45
Originally posted by rogerthat


But you wouldn't  have revisited it if it did not at all intrigue you at all at any level, is it not?  There has to be some emotional connection right from inception, otherwise it's rare that music you found absolutely deadpan and boring turned out to be super exciting - it is in such cases that developing a comfort level after many listens can be said to be forcing oneself to like it.  Again, there may be exceptions, but they don't make the rule. When I first listened to Gentle Giant, I was like, "What the hell!" All the same, I thought, "Damn, this is interesting" and I kept coming back till I liked it, song in question being "Experience".  My first extreme metal song was Raining Blood and I was flabbergasted to put it mildly by the frenetic activity encapsulated in a peak of about two minutes, but I sensed the drama lurking beneath the apparent chaos.  I am certain that if I had - like the majority of people - thought it to be utter noise garbage, I would have never become an extreme metal fan.  If there' s nothing to excite my curiousity first time around, there's not much incentive for me to return and like I said earlier, there's heaps of music to be discovered, who cares if I am "judgmental" about a few bands, so be it, I can live with it.  If I were a professional musician, I would however look at music more from an "investigative" angle, expose myself to unfamiliar genres just to pick up new ideas; as it is now, I look at it only from the perspective of appreciation and it looks to me as if my approach is reasonable. If it's not, I couldn't care less about it anyway.  

Fair enough. I guess it just takes a bit less to interest me than some people. You're right, I wouldn't have listened to it again if absolutely nothing in it had interested me. I don't think it has to be an emotional connection right from the inception though. I think any sort of connection will do. There was no emotional connection to the schoenberg violin concerto the first time I heard it, it really seemed like random notes. I knew there was some order to it, a very complex structure, so I kept listening to it to really explore that, but I had no emotional connection to it for the first 4 or so listens. So, I guess I agree with most of your post, but I just take issue with the overemphasis on the emotional connection.  I think I go halfway between your "investigative" angle and your "appreciation" angle, because I do sometimes expose myself unfamiliar genres just to pick up ideas, even though I don't have much use for the ideas (although I do enjoy writing songs on garageband and practicing a few instruments). I'm still never judgemental though. If I don't appreciate a song, I merely shelve it, maybe to come back, or maybe not, depending on how I'm feeling.

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Nuke View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2009 at 11:46
Sorry, it was a double post and it won't let me delete it. Mods feel free to delete this

Edited by Nuke - January 16 2009 at 11:50
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2009 at 11:46
Originally posted by moshkito

Hi,
 
So sad that some spammers can actually kill a thread that ... for all intents and purposes is actually really good for anyone that enjoys listening to music ... most of us don't have a problem with liking and appreciating a few different things ... at all.
 
Can we banish those folks to the Metallica-wish-you-were-prog thread instead? They really don't belong here.
 
Thx


I'd be happy to return to the subject at hand ... as far as the double bass drumming is concerned, it's not *that* far off the topic, since it's one of the reasons why some people feel estranged at least from modern prog.
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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2009 at 22:25
Originally posted by Nuke

 

Fair enough. I guess it just takes a bit less to interest me than some people. You're right, I wouldn't have listened to it again if absolutely nothing in it had interested me. I don't think it has to be an emotional connection right from the inception though. I think any sort of connection will do. There was no emotional connection to the schoenberg violin concerto the first time I heard it, it really seemed like random notes. I knew there was some order to it, a very complex structure, so I kept listening to it to really explore that, but I had no emotional connection to it for the first 4 or so listens. So, I guess I agree with most of your post, but I just take issue with the overemphasis on the emotional connection.  I think I go halfway between your "investigative" angle and your "appreciation" angle, because I do sometimes expose myself unfamiliar genres just to pick up ideas, even though I don't have much use for the ideas (although I do enjoy writing songs on garageband and practicing a few instruments). I'm still never judgemental though. If I don't appreciate a song, I merely shelve it, maybe to come back, or maybe not, depending on how I'm feeling.


Well, I don't mean emotional in a happy/sad sense, just that something should arouse my curiosity or excitement somewhere. In any case, I look for drama and dynamics in music, not so much direct emotions like sorrow or anger. As you said, any sort of connection will do. Thumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2009 at 23:32
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak

Clap Agree 100%. For example, when I first heard them, I couldn't tolerate Opeth because of the vocals. Eventually though, I developed a taste for their music, and that in turn opened the door for further explorations in Death/Black Metal. I don't think that this will always happen ... but it can.


I agree with you. I've noticed that I've become a bit more "liberal" when it comes to listening to music. Before I couldn't stand to listen to death growls but after previewing and listening to bands such as Between the Buried and Me and Opeth, I have developed a liking to tech/extreme metal and wish to explore it more. The musicianship for some of these bands is amazing and the vocals actually fit quite well with the subject matter. Thumbs Up


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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2009 at 02:09
Originally posted by Trademark

"Why don't we let the others decide which one of us is right and then move on"

This illustrates precisely the point I made earlier that you took offense to.  For me it has nothing whatsoever to do with "being right", and everything to do with saying what I happen to believe is true and hearing what others think.  This whole issue is a subjective one, there can be no right.  Where actual issues of fact are concerned its a different story.  Bit this It's about discussion and an exchange of views (opinions).  For you, Mike, it seems that you are concerned more with "winning" or "being right" than with simply stating your views and accepting the views of others, be it about double bass drumming tagging or anything else.  With you it seems to be agree or be wrong, win or lose and its kind of sad.



For the sake of closure, I'll post a final reply to this matter. For reasons unknown you again quoted me wrong ... in that line I wasn't referring to the double bass drumming. I was referring to your accusing me of being hypocritical, and applying different standards to others than I do to myself. Let's not continue this any further here ... what I had meant - and maybe failed to express properly in English - was that I wasn't interested in being a winner or being right. People who were following the discussion can simply decide for themselves which one of us they find more plausible. If some agree with you and think that I'm a hypocritical, self-righteous idiot - then I don't have any problem with that. Personally, I'd like to think that none of us are perfect ... and surely none of us will win any prize in diplomacy for our posts here.Wink

And just to say it one more time: I don't have any problem with accepting other people's opinions, no matter how strange they are. It's when they impose these opinions on others, or try to establish them as guidelines for newbies when they are really an isolated point of view with little to none support in the community ... then I take offense and will always react.

Returning to the subject at hand: When BaldFriede says that she feels estranged from prog, *maybe* it's because of her somewhat unusual opinions about double bass drumming, prog metal, modern production and other things that is making it difficult for her to find modern, prog-related music to enjoy to other than "post-prog" projects of her favorite prog artists from the 70s.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2009 at 02:33
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak



Returning to the subject at hand: When BaldFriede says that she feels estranged from prog, *maybe* it's because of her somewhat unusual opinions about double bass drumming, prog metal, modern production and other things that is making it difficult for her to find modern, prog-related music to enjoy to other than "post-prog" projects of her favorite prog artists from the 70s.

Not to nitpick (well, I am but whatever), but I don't think that her opinion is unusual at all. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2009 at 02:52
^ I only mean numerically speaking. Almost two years ago The T conducted a poll about double bass drumming:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34853

Only about 4% seem to think that it's simply no good. Now, please let me say it again: I respect those opinions just like those of the majority. But if a newbie came along and asked for recommendations, telling him to avoid double bass drumming might not be such a helpful advice. At least you should mention that most other people have no problems with them.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2009 at 03:20
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak

^ I only mean numerically speaking. Almost two years ago The T conducted a poll about double bass drumming:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34853

Only about 4% seem to think that it's simply no good. Now, please let me say it again: I respect those opinions just like those of the majority. But if a newbie came along and asked for recommendations, telling him to avoid double bass drumming might not be such a helpful advice. At least you should mention that most other people have no problems with them.

Eh... you could probably put anything in that poll and as long as there is a "if it fits the music" qualifier as a choice, that will be the prevailing answer. I generally dislike DBD (that Sonata Arctica song was particularly bad) but I would choose "if it fits the music." *shrug*

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2009 at 03:25
^ of course we could conduct a more specific poll. But still, I think that most people interpreted "if it fits the music" as double bass usage that exceeds the "gimmick" level.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2009 at 11:11
Originally posted by rogerthat


Well, I don't mean emotional in a happy/sad sense, just that something should arouse my curiosity or excitement somewhere. In any case, I look for drama and dynamics in music, not so much direct emotions like sorrow or anger. As you said, any sort of connection will do. Thumbs Up

Well then, we are in agreement! Seeing how rare that is on the internet, we should pat each other on the back. Smile

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