Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Blogs
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Camel Live
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedCamel Live

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
Message
Anthe View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: December 29 2008
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 48
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2009 at 04:39
 
Daniel, great post again. You give words to what I was thinking about lately. While reading your post,  there were so many times I wanted to react that I seemed to loose track. So I was thinking about how I could best respond. When reading your post again, I thought I could centre around three things you said, that for me, are very closely related and maybe I can use that as a focus. The first is the question if I like drama, the second your remarks about Beethoven in relation to Bach, Wagner and Mahler and third about your mentioning of rarely emotional guitarsolo's on the album Stationary Traveller.

To start with the latter, I agree with that, if I listen to the album. But during the concert it is totally different. Not that I was so much aware of that at the time I heard it, but seeing the dvd Pressure Points did make that very clear to me. And it is not that the dvd is even close in giving good camera work, or in focussing on who is playing or giving beautiful colours, it is not, but what it does show, is the very intense atmosphere, and for that matter, very emotional guitarsolo's.

I want to try and get it all better into words, but one clear example is the track Pressure Point. I don't know if you have heard it live, so I will try to upload the video at the end of this post. There is an intro first, and Pressure points itself starts after about 2 minutes. It is a very extended version, but is so really good. And it also gives such a good impression of what impact that concert had on me.

Then about if I like drama, can be centred about Beethoven. Like you, I like Beethoven the most. My classical music discovery started with Beethoven and it is where it ended more or less. There is a lot I like from Bach, especially from the Matthew Passion, like Erbarme Dich or Aus Liebe, are truly amazing. I can more or less understand how people see his work as brilliant and overall I like hearing his work. From Mozart I like his Requiem the most, I have listened to that so many times. And for the rest there is so much, I really like.

But both the music of Bach as well as the music of Mozart do not have that same powerful, basic and down to earth feeling that Beethoven has. And Beethoven has that with about all his work and that is what I like the most. But also something from his personality, he just has to throw that in, his music is just who he is, it is his very essence which he expresses. Well, at least that is the impression he gives me.

But what I somehow miss in his work is something what I found with the music of Schubert. There is a lot of Schubert which I do not tend to listen to, but there is some of his work that I just have to listen to over and over again. One of that is his Ave Maria and second his Unfinished symphony. And both have a certain quality, a certain magical tenderness, that I miss with Beethoven.

Then Wagner and Mahler do have some really very amazing music. I especially like Mahlers 2th symphony and some of the preludes of Wagners opera's. Of course there is much, much more, also a lot that I like, but not so much that I have to listen to it over and over again.

And this brings me to your remark about drama, all their work is, (in my very personal opinion) to pretentious. Pretentious in a way that is searching for a way to move people to have a certain effect, to create drama. And it is not that I don't like that. At times I really like that. But at the end it is not what I like the most in music. And in classical music I most like the combination of Beethoven and Schubert.

And just that combination of Beethoven and Schubert, of essential powerful expression combined with a sort of magical tenderness (I will have to go search for some better words to describe what I mean) is what I feel with the music of Camel. And I find that very much in their concert Pressure Points.

Of course for a large part the performance of Lady Fantasy there, which was truly amazing. I was so surprised to hear some old favourites, because I thought the concert ended with Long Goodbyes, which in itself was fantastic, and again especially the guitar there. But I still remember my surprise that when I thought it was over, just then the best (at that time) had to come, some of the Snow goose and Lady Fantasy.

But another truly wonderful guitar piece of that concert is Stationary Traveller itself. Which I find so truly amazing, it just takes my breath away, every time I hear it. Most of all seeing it live ofcourse, but also on the album. In fact it would be very hard to choose between Lady Fantasy, Ice and Stationary Traveller, those are my absolute favourites at this moment.

So indeed for the album itself I would say it are not so many moments of emotional guitarsolo, and it does not so much have this powerful and dense atmosphere. But the concert does, and thinking and writing about it now, that is the combination that I like the most. I just have to try and put it better into words.


The extended version of Pressure Points, starting after about 2 minutes.


 


Edited by Anthe - January 27 2009 at 12:22
Back to Top
Anthe View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: December 29 2008
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 48
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2009 at 05:33
Originally posted by VariousArtist VariousArtist wrote:

but I was hooked on this magical album of instrumental music called "Snow Goose".   No-one else I knew seemed to know much about them

Thank you so much for your story. And I so recognise what you say. Hooked on their music whithout knowing anything at all about them, no-one else who knows anything about them or their music. And then later on listening again and even loving it more. And like you, I so admire their classical songs that somehow are taken over the years and many times only get better.

And indeed their music is so moving. But as I was thinking lately, moving in a not just personal, but also more universal way. I don't know yet how to describe it, but somehow I think that explains their magic on those who never heard it before, or those that are not really aware of it. 

I don't know what it is exactly, but I really would like to find that out!





Edited by Anthe - January 27 2009 at 05:45
Back to Top
Daniel1974nl View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: November 21 2008
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 53
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2009 at 06:47
Moonmadness is another great album in the line of Mirage and the Snow Goose....I think its easy why several people comment on this album as one of ther best...there are after all so many great tunes on this album....Personally I think even a song as Sprit Of The Water is imply amazing.....
 
But the highlights ofcourse are Song Within A Song....what a song is that...and what an opening it would have made...I think the level is been provided right away...Another night...is a song that still needs to grow on me.....but it contains a really maginificent hammond solo in the end....The absolute highlights are the 2 last songs of the album...to begin with Airborn.......one of the most beautifull songs they ever wrote.......(I make a difference between songs and tracks) and absolutely beautifull vocals of Latimer...and flute ofcourse also....Its a real shame that there indeed are no live versions known to us.....and the songs possible is never performed live....it would have made such a great contribution to a setlist.....
 
Lunar Sea is known as a long live favorite....since its not presented on Never Let Go, I asume that its not played on the 1993 tour...but it was used as an opening song on the 1997 and that worked really we'll...its an instrumental track....so the band could pull out all the stops right away....Awsome....Yes, its a song with some varying from, really wild till really sensitive playing......with that I think a typical Camel song.
 
What next : I can see your house from here.' ?
Back to Top
Daniel1974nl View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: November 21 2008
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 53
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2009 at 08:57

Anthe...yes I know ressure Points very we'll.....My boss that introduced me to Camel...took me to her house one day...costum made speakers....absolutely top notch high end set...and she told me to sit down and listen some stuff.....One of the things she put on was indeed Pressure Points....right from the beginning.....I thought....wow...there we go again.........just as with Never Let Go...I think I have the extended DVD at home...but didn't have the chance to waith it yet...Too bad...But I can imagine something with that....I mean it goes on like Pressure Points then it must be totally stellar.....Its indeed true that the studio version tend to focus more on other instruments, but live Andy indeed pulling out all the plugs again......Particularry amazing is the solo of Pressure Points that starts around 3:20, the music is softening down....only keys and beautifull and suddle bass and there we go......so amazingly touching....and then the interplay of keys and guitars......such a different story than the album......The other things I heard that day....were some things of Eric Woolfson (Re-recorded songs of Alan Parsons songs) and.....what was the absolute summum for me.....a song called Only Because Of You from Roger Hodgson.....talking about drama and emotion......and of that was not enough...she ended with a version of Supertram's Fools Overture that was recorded with the musical festival Night Of The Promps, where the song is performed completely....with Orchestra.....the best version I have ever heard......Roger behind the piano......but man....what playing.....quite simular as when I saw Supertram in 1997.......I never forget that solo from Rick Davis... during Another Man's Woman.......totally amazing...and a really different way of emotion.....

Mozart always sounded too childish to me....Perhaps its due the fact that I can't get that picture out of my head whenever I listen Mozart that I have left from....watching Amadeus......But one of my professors more than once.....emphasized the absolute beauty of The Magical Flute....and often remarked that he envied all that students that still had it lying on front of them and still were about to discover something so beautifull. But I never got into it....I heard alot from Mozart over the years...but never was really blown away. I think because it was not giving me that feeling....and I own everything from Beethoven that he ever wrote....thank God DG decide to release that in a box...of 20 volumes....so I  listen through everything quite intense.....and it was indeed what I regarded the end of my classical journey.......the summum of classical music......with no doubt....

I like the way you say....'His music is what he is....' I think thats very adequatly described cos it s really true....this man was overwelmed with emotion and drama....and his music is very much the result of an overflow of drama....I never forgot a certain scene in Immortal Beloved...where Gary Oldman (as Beethoven) plays Fur Elise...playing with his head on the piano......his eys closed...while theb love of his life is watching him from a distance and when he spots her....he totally freaks out because he regarded it as taking a secret peek in someones diary.....So I guess for Beethoven composing music had the same function as writing a diary.......so he personified himself completely with the music he composed. A few other things I thought that were absolutely haunting.......Adagio For Strings from Samuel Barber....Certain pieces of the Peer Gyntt Of Edward Grieg...And I think the adagio of the first symphony of Mahler......Symphony 3 of Gorecki, Requim of Mozart,  and yes...I also often like the eginning of the Wagner opera's....as Parsifal for example....or ofcourse Tristan and Isolde......Some middle parts of Rienzi are very amazing.....due the use use of choire...truly fantastic.....Beethoven is a star in that too.....Only too bad that Beethoven only composed very few Organ pieces, while Back compused too much of this....Im not very familiar with Schubert....I shall look if I have something of him at home or on my harddrive......I have alot of classical stuff that I still didn't listen too. But classical can cause emotion in alot of different ways....like by extremely sensitive piano, violin or cellosolo's or...by fully blown organ work or by a choire....and In general I have not really established a preference (yet)....while in normal music...my preference definatly goes out to guitar and mellotron.

Yes, Lady Fantasy and Ice also would be in my top 3...and I think or Nimrodel or Never Let Go.......I truly like Stationary Traveller (love to hear that live, but I dont have the DVD here....see if I can find it on You Tube) but the studioversion is indeed also realy amazing.....one that I should have added to the list of Vopos, Fingertips and West Berlin............But I think Never Let Go...because it was the song that brought me into Camel.....and Ice because its simply imposible to believe that people can play like that....untill you actually hear this song yourself.....or even better see it performed live. Lady Fantasy....is the all time favorite for any Camel fan and....in a way this really is more than justified as I would say its one of the crowning achievements in Progressive Rock in general....Once again....especially the power and rawness of the liveversion....No matter on....A Live Record, Never Let Go or A Paris Collection.....but preferable this last version.....although the vocals of this version are not done by Andy himself....which he does with Never Let Go....Perhaps because he got ill durimg that particulair tour and his voice had to be spared.....No matter why...I think this voacals are great....and the lyrics are different in relation to Never Let Go....or am I only imagining that ?
 
Oh and....about your desire to put everything in better words.......Not all things we experience in life can be put into words.....language has its shortcomings and when it comes to describing art and emotion....you can see that very clearly......Music indeed the highest form of art (Schopenhauer was so right about that) and indeed is one of these things that can so totally overblow you that need everything in your body to recover from that.....I was more than fortunate enough to experience a few of these moments in my life......and yes...2 of them were during 2 different Camel concerts.
 
But...only putting on a cd...can have such an effect as we'll.....In my other reply I was refering to Quidam, a band from Poland that....toured with Colin Bass in 1998 to promote his album 'An Outcast of the island' (another album with some truly amazing guitarplaying of Andy)....Great concerts..I think I saw 3 of them over a week time.....but the album Quidam...that first song Sanctuarium.......absolutely amazing........openimg of a debute.....perhaps one of the best ones ever.....that guitarplaying comes extremely close of that of Andy......But here...the bridge......has first a Cello solo, then a flute solo and then ultimatly the guitarsolo................it leaves you utterly devastated.......only longing to do one thing....listen to it again.....and again.....and live......its equally amazing.....and is the cellosolo often replaced by the Firth Of Fifth solo. If you can get your hands on that.....listen to it.
 
 
Back to Top
Anthe View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: December 29 2008
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 48
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2009 at 06:51
 
"The absolute highlights are the 2 last songs of the album...to begin with Airborn.......one of the most beautifull songs they ever wrote.......(I make a difference between songs and tracks) and absolutely beautifull vocals of Latimer...and flute ofcourse also....Its a real shame that there indeed are no live versions known to us.....and the songs possible is never performed live....it would have made such a great contribution to a setlist"
 
Yes, definitely one I would love to hear live. I should do that too indeed, making a difference between song and track. I mixe them up all the time. I sure wish there was a better word that could be used for both. Track always makes me think of something on an album, not so much something played live. But that might be just me and my limited English. 

 

"Lunar Sea is known as a long live favorite....since its not presented on Never Let Go, I asume that its not played on the 1993 tour...but it was used as an opening song on the 1997 and that worked really we'll...its an instrumental track....so the band could pull out all the stops right away....Awsome....Yes, its a song with some varying from, really wild till really sensitive playing......with that I think a typical Camel song."

I just heard it. Yesterday I got the dvd and it is just fantastic. And what a synchronicity that they just start with Lunar Sea. And it so very interesting to hear the difference. Personally I like the one on the Moondances dvd more, especally that it has a much nicher flow there. But maybe also because I heard that one so much yet. And I just have get used to the other one.

What I also noticed is the very much more powerful sounding of the guitar than on the other two dvd's, Moondances and Pressure Points. And I find that for some numbers really fantastic, like a few from the album Nude (Drafted, Docks and Beached) and of course for Ice.

But for others it just seems to much at times. I especially have that with parts of the Snow Goose and I also have it with Lunar Sea. I personally like that more how they did that in the beginning. But on the other hand it is great to hear such diversity, that makes it all so much more interesting.

 
"What next : I can see your house from here.' ?"

Well, I was thinking about that. I tend to follow where my interest goes, although my original intention was to use the order of the concerts. So that would lead to the video of Preparation and Dunkirk from the Snow Goose. But if I would follow the timeline of the albums I would have to take Never let go first, becaust that was on the first album. But I think I want to hear the performance of the Never let go concert first. So maybe I can better follow my current interest. And at the moment I am getting even more and more intrigued by Ice.

And that feeling is even increasing now I found something of King Crimson. I recently had listened to some of it, as I read about it all over this forum. And some I really liked. But today I saw someone mention Epitaph and so I went looking, and I found it. And wow, just wow.

What I heard so far from them was at times really intruiging, but it did not have some coherent whole what I like so much. But that song does, and how. From the very minute on I was drawn in. Besides that it was a video with the lyrics shown, and that made it even so much more fantastic. Really good.

That song, together with Ice and Pressure Points are going on in my head now, I am just not sure yet what exactly their connection is. 

About your other post, wow, is that again going to take some time to respond to. You say so many things I immediately want to react to, but what is so difficult to write down at times. But it sure helps me a lot to find the right words. 




Edited by Anthe - January 28 2009 at 06:56
Back to Top
Daniel1974nl View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: November 21 2008
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 53
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2009 at 09:37
In Dutch you can make the difference more easy...In English we speak of song and track....And in Dutch Liedje and Nummer.....In progressive rock its not always apropropriate to speak about songs (liedjes) because it are often compositions that are far from that or have the pretention to be that..Alot of Songs of Camel can be characterised is Songs (City Life, Refugee, Air Born, Eyes Of Ireland are just a few that come in my mind)...but alot can also certainly not be named songs. But tracks....mainy due they are instrumental, and have a rather epic character (songs like The Gods Of Light, Lady Fantasy, Nimrodel, Ice, Lawrence and Lunar Sea Come to mind now) This is a tendency of Prog in general....and many bands prefer to write epics....or sometimes only epics (like Transatlantic for example, a concert of over 2,5 hours but they only played 6 songs friom which 3 were over 30 min. long......Bands are Yes, Genesis, Pink Floyd, ELP etc...are notorious for writing epics....this is making prog...a more album based  thing. But greatly interesting......I think in that they borrowed heavenly from classical music.
 
Last night I was at home and I decided to watch some stuff on You Tube....ofcourse all Camel....I watched Stationary Traveller....what great tune this is live....Then I watched Ice......sodeju !! (we would say in Dutch)...It reminded me how amazing it was to be present at this concert / tour......I took your advise and observed what was going on....What I must say that really struck me was what happened right at the last tunes of Ice...when Andy is breathing out...very slowly....and looks like he is so fullfilled of relief.....like something he had to deliver......and builded up and came eventually to an ultimate climax........Another thing that is really surprising me is....no Floyd Rose or Tremelor......so he.....is not using a pedal on his guitar, what is strange.....if you realize a tremellor is standard....so that means the guitar must be costummade.....
 
You refer to the fact....that you think the older versions have more powerfull sound....I think sometimes the songs are played in a faster note.......This was also a high factor of complaints in relation to the 2007 show of Genesis...that alot of songs very played in a lower key and a slower pace so that Phil could catch up the vocals still. Band members are getting old.....and in Camel its not any different....The fire and the wild hairs are dissapearing, but the passion and the emotion....the desire for mellow songs are ballads are getting stronger. Look to Mark Knopfler for example.....his album do really tend to become a snorfest by now...Overproduction, good songwriting....goes at the expenses of amazing guitarplaying.....and Knopfler can play......The other example comes to mind is Clapton....in his younger days he was a member of Cream, Derek & The Dominoes and so on.....but these days his albums and playing is rather mellow. Only rarely he pulls out the stops. Its a far cry from what he did with Cream or the way he played during the Fillmore concerts with Derek & The Dominies.
 
However tend to believe that the guitar does sounds more powerfull on never versions, simply because Andy is playing a Fender and in early times a Gibson.....but it can also be due the fact that the soundquality is better.......I should listen to it more, and find out / observe the difference.
 
So you are into KC now....I see that you got hooked to KC by exactly the same song as me Epitaph. This is what I would call Mellotron heaven. And Greg Lake's playing is simply fantastic. Its one of the all time classics (and it was already written in 1967) in Prog and for many bands I think one of the biggest inspirations.....In The Court Of The Crimson King, remains to this day one of my everlasting classics.....what a songs on that album.....I can recomand the albums In The Wake Of Poseidon and Lark's Tongues In Aspic, but be carefull with others cos it can be quite experimental and chaotic from time to time. KC needs to grow on you.....I own every album...butfor alot it took me along time to apreciate it......And most albums usually have a few songs that are amazing...songs as The Night Watch, Starless, The Sheltering Sky, Sleepless etc.....
 
Back to Top
Drummerboy View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: March 12 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 81
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2009 at 10:53
Going off topic a bit, but if you like KC, you MUST check out Anekdoten, from Sweden. Their early stuff has strong KC influence including mellotron, but is also original.
 
Also, the reference to Caravan is a good one; more of a jazz influence I'd say, but complimentary to and contemporary with Camel.
Back to Top
Hercules View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
Status: Online
Points: 4555
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2009 at 12:05
Anyone who passes ANY comment on The Snow Goose without actually reading Gallico's book has no credibility whatsoever. Comments such as "too soft", "not heavy enough" etc,etc miss the point: this is inspired by a book about an injured goose and a beautiful girl and a deformed man who fall in love, set in the Dunkirk era, written for children. Heavy is just not appropriate.

Anthe's work, relating the music to passages of the book, is brilliant and may just bring some enlightenment to the many who clearly have no idea what the album is about at a deeper level. Personally, I think it is THE greatest work of genius in the prog rock canon.

Well done, Anthe!

 
A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
Back to Top
Anthe View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: December 29 2008
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 48
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 01:55
Originally posted by Daniel1974nl Daniel1974nl wrote:

 
You refer to the fact....that you think the older versions have more powerfull sound 
 
I was planning to react on much more you said, but first I want to try and show you what I meant to say. Maybe it is best to focus on one part, so I uploaded Rhayader goes to town of the Snow Goose, once played in 1975 and the other played in 1997.
 
Somehow I feel the first one is more subtle and the last one is more intense. That is about the best I can describe it at this point.
 
So I don't mean that the older version is more powerful, I meant that I personally prefer that one. 
 
But with others, like Ice, I much more prefer the intensity. There is a certain very dense feeling in his later playing. Which I really like very much. Certainly how he can perfectly dose it in Harbour of tears. 
 
But with some of the older work, like Lunar Sea and with Rhayader I think it is to much, and I like the other ones more. Of course that is a very personally preference, but I am just trying to find out what exactly causes that.
 
So here are the 2 videos. With the first one, Rhayader goes to town starts at 4.40 and with the second one it starts at about 3 minutes. I am very curious to hear what you (and others) think.
 


 
 

 
  
Back to Top
Anthe View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: December 29 2008
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 48
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 02:12
Originally posted by Drummerboy Drummerboy wrote:

if you like KC, you MUST check out Anekdoten

I went searching yesterday and I must say it has a certain magical feeling, that I like very much. I was planning to listen to just one video, but somehow there was an autoplay and I did not want to stop it. 

So I listened to 4 of them, The war is over, From within, Sad rain and Gravity. Well, if I remember correctly. And indeed, great band. 

But the strange thing was that I found a lot of videos of them on Deezer, but no albums.
Back to Top
Anthe View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: December 29 2008
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 48
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 02:29
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Anyone who passes ANY comment on The Snow Goose without actually reading Gallico's book has no credibility whatsoever. 

Well, I certainly was very impressed and moved by the book. I had never read the story but a few months ago I thought I could look at our local librairy to see if they had the book. And to my surprise (there are not so many English books in a Dutch local librairy) they did have it.

So I took it home and read at one go. Well, not that it takes so long, not to much longer than listening to the Snow Goose. It is a really short story, but at the same time one of the most beautiful and moving stories I have ever read. 

And indeed, it did make listening to the Snow Goose so much more interesting and understandable.
Back to Top
Daniel1974nl View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: November 21 2008
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 53
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 06:11
I have no option to watch it here at my work.....will do that at home...I'll let you know....Im very curious too.
Back to Top
Daniel1974nl View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: November 21 2008
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 53
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2009 at 06:32
Anekdoten's albums : Vemon, Nucleus, Live In Japan, From Within, Gravity, Waking The Dead & A Time Of Day. No legal video's / DVD are known to me...or released untill now..what is regretfull cos its really amazing to see this people play. And you found 2 of their greatest tunes.....Gravity and Sad Rain.
 
I think its by far the best modern day progressive rock band.....indeed extremely influenced by KC...and you can heard that....In their early years they often used to play some KC covers, like Circus to close the setlist but now they more and more only play their own stuff.
 
We are getting off topic.....but Swedish Prog is really good. Try...Landberk, Anglagard or The Flower Kings
 
 
Back to Top
Anthe View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: December 29 2008
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 48
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2009 at 03:37

"around 3:20, the music is softening down....only keys and beautifull and suddle bass and there we go......so amazingly touching....and then the interplay of keys and guitars......such a different story than the album"

Do you mean around 4:20 with the solo of the bassguitar? I also think it absolutely fantastic. It gives such a special sphere.

"Mozart always sounded too childish to me....Perhaps its due the fact that I can't get that picture out of my head whenever I listen Mozart that I have left from....watching Amadeus"

Yes, I know what you mean. I have the same and the most of Mozart I like, but does not have that extreme magical. With some exceptions, like his requiem and the Commendatore scene of  Don Giovanni. And beside that there are a few symphonies I like a lot, but not to the extend that I want to listen to it over and over again. What I did find very intruiging was the movie Amadeus itself, especially just the fact that he was rather childish, without consciously being aware of his talents. Beethoven in that gives me a different feeling, more of a selfexpression.

"plays Fur Elise...playing with his head on the piano......his eys closed...while theb love of his life is watching him from a distance and when he spots her....he totally freaks out because he regarded it as taking a secret peek in someones diary.....So I guess for Beethoven composing music had the same function as writing a diary.......so he personified himself completely with the music he composed."

I have to go see that movie again. I saw it only once and can not remember it too well. But indeed I think his music was very much who he was. A reflection of his development in life. Really different from Mozart where this talent seemed to have existed already and not so much a result of his own life or with Bach where religion seemed to have a bigger influence.
And as I am finding out more and more, this developmental process is what I like the most, with its top in music. Because of its brilliant way of communication with the unconscious knowledge we all have.

 A few other things I thought that were absolutely haunting.......Adagio For Strings from Samuel Barber

Yes, really good, I also like that a lot.

"Symphony 3 of Gorecki"

Wow, that you like that too! My husband came home one day and said he had something that was the most depressing he had ever heard. And I just had to agree, but indeed so very beautiful.

"Requim of Mozart

Yes, there were time I just could listen to that. Really, really intruiging music. Others tend to say it is to depressing, but I don't think that. At times I just like to hear it a lot, no idea why.

"and yes...I also often like the eginning of the Wagner opera's....as Parsifal for example"

Yes, especially Parsifal indeed, I don't know why, but it is just so amazing.

"or ofcourse Tristan and Isolde......Some middle parts of Rienzi are very amazing.....due the use use of choire"

Tristan and Isolde at parts indeed too. Reinzi I can not remember hearing.

"truly fantastic.....Beethoven is a star in that too.....Only too bad that Beethoven only composed very few Organ pieces"

I do not remember hearing those. Somehow I can not think of Beethoven so much with organmusic.

"Im not very familiar with Schubert"

I remember seeing a serie, years ago, about Schubert. It came very late at night and somehow it had a very slow character. But I was so intruiged by it. There his unfinished symphony was played and I just found it so moving. I had been looking but could never find that serie of movie again.

"I have alot of classical stuff that I still didn't listen too. But classical can cause emotion in alot of different ways....like by extremely sensitive piano, violin or cellosolo's or...by fully blown organ work or by a choire....and In general I have not really established a preference (yet)"

I noticed that my preference in classical music is the voice, especially soprano and even more specific not the technical and coloured one, but a pure and rather sober but powerful voice. Or the voice of Maria Callas, which also has that but than with so much passion. I had a tape once with her songs I love the most and there where days I did nothing than play that all day long. But later on I started searching for more sober and pure voices.

"while in normal music...my preference definatly goes out to guitar and mellotron."

Yes indeed definitely guitar. And mellotron is something I just discovered. But it has already very much impressed me. But hearing some music now (like you call Epitaph of King Crimson Mellotron heaven) I must have always liked it with the early music of Camel, without realising it.

Oh and....about your desire to put everything in better words.......Not all things we experience in life can be put into words.....language has its shortcomings and when it comes to describing art and emotion....you can see that very clearly"

Yes, I know that it is probabley not possible. But at this point I am very determined to give it a try anyway. It is just, how do you find the right words. That is what I wrote a few days in despair. Finding the right words to describe what music does… seems impossible.

But the very next day I found the Youtube video with King Crimsons Epitaph. The video I saw had the lyrics on it and the combination of both just blew me away. I never really listen to lyrics, mostly because music is the most important for me. No matter how good the lyrics are, if the music is not extremely addictive, than I am not so very interested in the piece. And in classical music the lyrics were especially not interesting for me. Either religious, or some language I could not understand. But even if I could understand it, it had mostly a second role. Recently I had been listening to Lisa Gerrard. She has a fantastic voice, but here words are no real words, just sound and made up language. Just something she produces herself. And for me that is just enough often. The sound is more important then the meaning, something like that.

But here, with Epithaph, every word was perfecty in the right place. But had also such an impressive meaning to me. Somehow it did express what I am searching for, for such a long time now. It gives words to some point in human development what I am so very interested in which in a way I hear with Ice and also with Pressure Points somehow. I have no idea yet how I have to say how I mean that, but I am certainly going to try. Although that of course will be a very personal intepretation, and maybe not at all what was intended by the writer of that text, and maybe not at all what others hear in it. 

"Music indeed the highest form of art (Schopenhauer was so right about that) and indeed is one of these things that can so totally overblow you that need everything in your body to recover from that.....I was more than fortunate enough to experience a few of these moments in my life......and yes...2 of them were during 2 different Camel concerts."

Yes, I think that I can see what you mean.
 
"But...only putting on a cd...can have such an effect as we'll.....In my other reply I was refering to Quidam, a band from Poland that....toured with Colin Bass in 1998 to promote his album 'An Outcast of the island' (another album with some truly amazing guitarplaying of Andy)....Great concerts..I think I saw 3 of them over a week time"

Wow, really.

"but the album Quidam...that first song Sanctuarium.......absolutely amazing........openimg of a debute.....perhaps one of the best ones ever.....that guitarplaying comes extremely close of that of Andy......But here...the bridge......has first a Cello solo, then a flute solo and then ultimatly the guitarsolo................it leaves you utterly devastated.......only longing to do one thing....listen to it again.....and again.....and live......its equally amazing.....and is the cellosolo often replaced by the Firth Of Fifth solo. If you can get your hands on that.....listen to it"

Defenitely sounds like something I would like to hear.


 



Edited by Anthe - January 30 2009 at 04:29
Back to Top
Daniel1974nl View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: November 21 2008
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 53
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2009 at 10:58
We;ll, yes the movie Amaseus was fabulous indeed....Have you by any chance seen the remastered and extended version of this movie ? Its really much better, simply because the music blows so hard in your face...the music is so uch more dynamical, while I think the normal version is not like that all. I guess it really benefits from a 5.1 remaster....keeps you wondering how it would sound in DTS...And Yes I think Mozart was not aware of his geniousness at all......And just did all this stuff because he had to...like it was flowing out of him....without taking any effort......I think that usually the case with people that posess a highly talented skill...I had a friend who was highly talented in mathmatics...we were all trying and trying but he just did his thing and didn't really see why we were suffering so much....I think when people get older they eventually will....As far as I know Kant or Newton, for example were perfectly aware of thier intellectual capabilities....Kant even refered to it....stating that all he had to much in his head was what he had to short in his body...Great Philosophers often suffer from a poor body and bad health conditions, Descartes, Spinoza, Kant, etc.....So perhaps....But as it appears in the movie atleast Beethoven was fully aware of what he could achieve...and indeed enlarged all imaginable borders....I ask you someone who is deaf...can compose something so amazing as the 9th Symphony........Anyway....he he was convinced all along that it was the highest grandeur...but others often reminded him it was a impossible piece of music......just like the notorious Rach. 3.... what is often named as the most difficult piece of music ever composed. I guess in the end.....Beethoven and Bach took themself more serious.
 
To be continued
 
 
Back to Top
mikfox View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: August 20 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 2
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2009 at 09:37
Hi all,
I have to say I have been moved and touched at the way you all feel about "Camel". Most of the friends I have grown up with over the years did not have the same tastes in music as myself but I have always been undeterred by that and the one thing I have found about people who see in Camel more than just a group of musicians or a band, is that they are all one. It is, as somebody else mentioned here, a universal thing.
They had this ability to connect in an ethereal way, that few other groups were able to. No gimmicks, costumes, strange publicity, just the honesty and integrity of what was in their hearts and souls.
I have been listening to Camel since 1971 almost every week since then. I first came across them as a result (strangely enough) of hearing Todd Rundgren's "I saw the Light" on Radio Luxemburg one evening....I called at my local record shop that weekend to see if they had it and yes, I bought it. Whilst I was there, he asked me if I liked Todd as he had an album just out "Something/Anything". I played a couple of tracks in the shop and bought that also. Needless to say at the time, that was my week's wages gone.....
However, the following week I called at the shop again and he said if I like what Todd Rundgren played, he would sort out some groups which he thought were similar or that I would like.....and I was introduced to Camel. I have loved them ever since and great credit must go to Peter Bardens in the early days (who I had the pleasure of meeting, along with his band "Mirage" and dining with after show on one occasion.
Not forgetting Andy, who last time I heard was making a good recovery from his illness (anyone know any more?).
The one thing I always noticed about Andy was how his faced also played every single note and it was how I knew that evrything he did came from within his soul. Ecstacy!
I don't know if the band will ever tour again but I have seen them on a few occasions and have been blown away and almost in tears.
You may wonder where this is going.......well I have to say, Camel and Todd have had a part in shaping who I am today....yes it is that profound.
I have never done drugs, been alcoholic or anything like that, not even addicted to concerts, but the one theme throughout my life is that I have been able to play their songs at almost anytime, whether down or not so down and it has kind of taken me on a high, which soothes and heals and mends whatever has been a trouble, and relaxed me at the end of the day.
I am 54 years of age and have loved having them by my side throughout those years.

It seems from the wonderful words you have all placed on this page that you have felt the same.
I hope I have contributed in some small way to the debate and I look forward to seeing more in the future.
Best wishes to you all.
Mikfox
Back to Top
VariousArtist View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: June 09 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 11
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2009 at 10:43
Always nice to see other people into Camel and glad to see these posts here.  In fact the other day after reading these I decided to listen to a few of my favourite Camel pieces on my drive to work.  Somewhere through "Airborn" I realized I had completely missed my exit off the freeway!  So I quickly figured out an alternative way to get around the issue I'd caused myself by going in a roundabout way via the next freeway exit -- only to find myself in the middle of the Snow Goose album going in the wrong direction.  And these are roads I know well.

So, let this be a warning:  Camel is bad for your sense of direction while driving!  You can literally lose yourself while listening

:-)
Back to Top
Anthe View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: December 29 2008
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 48
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2009 at 02:54
Originally posted by Daniel1974nl Daniel1974nl wrote:

Have you by any chance seen the remastered and extended version of this movie

I think I just saw the normal version, I did not know there was another one. But I sure want to see that one, have to look for it then.

"And just did all this stuff because he had to...like it was flowing out of him....without taking any effort"

Yes, that is indeed the impression he gives. Well in the movie at least. But somehow it must be something like that, how else can someone be that talented at such a young age. It must be something he was born with. And than of course he had the right training.

"I think that usually the case with people that posess a highly talented skill"

But if someone has certain talents, it does not mean that all goes well, I guess. And there are probably other areas in life they suffer. Maybe in socialising, or in relations, or in creative expression. But others might not recognise this suffering. 

"Great Philosophers often suffer from a poor body and bad health conditions, Descartes, Spinoza, Kant, etc"

That is indeed also what I was thinking. Not that I know if it is true all the time, but I do think that often the focus is to much on one aspect, especially with those who are extremely talented in one area. And I guess balance is good but in order to stand out maybe it has to be a bit extreme.

"But as it appears in the movie atleast Beethoven was fully aware of what he could achieve...and indeed enlarged all imaginable borders....I ask you someone who is deaf...can compose something so amazing as the 9th Symphony"

Yes amazing, really unbelievable how someone can compose something like that, and being deaf while doing that, is beyond me. 

But I am very interested in the difference between the lives of composers like Beethoven en Mozart for example. But I am also very interested in the lives of philosophers. My focus has been for a while on the connection between Nietzsche and Wagner. I think that was a very interesting relationship and somehow I have the feeling it also was a very important point in human development as a whole. 



Back to Top
Anthe View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: December 29 2008
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 48
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2009 at 03:34
Originally posted by mikfox mikfox wrote:

They had this ability to connect in an ethereal way, that few other groups were able to. No gimmicks, costumes, strange publicity, just the honesty and integrity of what was in their hearts and souls. 

I am so glad you say that, it indeed is something I very much feel as such. Something in their music that speaks straight to your soul. Without knowing anything about them or their music. When I was searching on Youtube I came across a reaction of someone who said something like: “Latimer playing his heart out for the whole world to see”. I think it is something you indeed can see, hear and feel.


"but the one theme throughout my life is that I have been able to play their songs at almost anytime, whether down or not so down and it has kind of taken me on a high, which soothes and heals and mends whatever has been a trouble, and relaxed me at the end of the day."

I think it is just so amazing that music can do that. I must say, that is what fascinates me the most at this moment. How it is possible that music has that ability. 


It seems from the wonderful words you have all placed on this page that you have felt the same.”

Well, I certainly do. And it is just so amazing to hear others who feel the same way. 

Back to Top
Anthe View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: December 29 2008
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 48
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2009 at 03:47
Originally posted by VariousArtist VariousArtist wrote:

So, let this be a warning:  Camel is bad for your sense of direction while driving!  You can literally lose yourself while listening
:-)

I can so totally see what you mean! I do not have their music in my car, so fortunately it can not influence my driving. My sense of direction is bad enough without that. But I have the same when I listen to their music, especially if I am watching it on the dvd. I just can not stop listening. Someone used the word spellbound and that is how it feels, you just seem to loose controle.


Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.102 seconds.