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Flower Kings Appreciation Thread

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Tom Ozric View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2018 at 15:32
Even if CDís do sound superior to vinyl, LPís are still a better format. Period !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2018 at 15:56
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

Even if CDís do sound superior to vinyl, LPís are still a better format. Period !!

Be nice.....LOL

The only thing that matters is she does not like digital or CDs.......ClapHeartThumbs Up

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2018 at 16:38
^ Mmmm   
But does she like Meshuggah, on vinyl of course
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2018 at 10:41
Tom....saw our buddy Nick Beggs with Steven Wilson last night in Seattle. My wife ran to the front when doors opened so she was key in us being right in front of him. He killed it last night, even my wife was noticing his stellar playing. I love when he plays the chapman stick.

The show was brilliant! SW is getting better and better with every tour, this was our 3rd time seeing him live. The setlist included several PT songs and they were played with such force it was awesome!

Ninet was present too, she opened the show with a 30 min solo set and she is awesome!! That girl can sing and my wife totally fell in love with her and her voice, power and presence....She bought a Ninet shirt LOL! Very impressive.....





Edited by Catcher10 - May 09 2018 at 10:46


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2018 at 12:56
^ Thatís fantastic !!   Hope to catch Wilson and Co. here in November. Just superb !
Beggs will always be my hero
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2018 at 02:05
Looks good. Saw Hackett in Salford a couple of years back he had Stolt on bass! How good was that!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2018 at 10:09
I now have all eight the tangent cd's that I was missing. A
When I get home after this weekend I will listening to them all! But which order shall I listen to them!
Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote infandous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2018 at 10:35
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I had 10 hours in the car last weekend going to see my son at school.........Listened to Stardust, Retropolis, Adam&Eve (my fav) and forced myself to listen to Banks of Eden.......

Driving back I did Flowerpower, Back In the World Of Adventures and DR. Found some new love for Retropolis....I was alone as wife could not go so there was a lot of volume, it was fun!
How did you stop the turntable from jumping? You must have travelled some really smooth roads...


No, no.  He has the 8-track player in the car Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote infandous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2018 at 10:45
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

"it simply sounds better" - to you? - thus that could just be your own preference and loaded with confirmation bias!I have CD's and expensive headphones - need no more. I suspect that some people have better hearing than others. I want to see some science - proving that listening to vinyl is better - with a double-blind experiment!

Somehwere on the old threads a couple of years or so ago Dean our past esteemed moderator and engineer expert did  several long posts to show that the audio frequencies ,etc ,etc  and hearing etc...showed that vinyl sounding  better is just a psychological/subjective perception.
Just my two cents on what he once posted...

Smile

Yes he did, but his explanations were always, as he stated, the scientific end of the argument, specifications only. For sure digital (not CD) holds the best specifications in the industry, can't argue that...but that in noway means "it sounds best". If we are talking physical media, the CD is restricted to an upper limit of 20KHz, that's it. The vinyl media has no upper limit, not that it matters much but there have been records pressed with upper frequencies of 30-50KHz and even 100KHz, does not matter because we will never hear that. Most of us are probably in the 15-17KHz range.....but that's not all of it.

Your brain uses these upper limits to help process the music/sounds in its entirety, in the real world there are sounds with freq up to 50KHz, we know they exist we have no idea where they are coming from but we feel their presence. Why do you think so many people have subs in their media systems or cars...they want to "feel" the bass, it's never "wow that was a very low note I just heard".....no it's "wow did you see the pictures on the wall shake??!!" Feeling the music helps us be engaged more in the music.

You need as much of the upper freq as possible, that helps you get the SNAP of a snare drum, if not it has a dense sound, dynamics are not there. A cymbal hit has freq well above 20KHz, probably close to 50% of its sound is higher than 20KHz, some horn instruments can shoot sounds above that range also.

I want all the music range in my listening experience, that's why I don't listen to CDs anymore. I do listen to some 24bit hi-rez files and DSD files but those are terribly expensive and are very large files to d/l and there is nothing physical about them, do digital files even exist?? ErmmLOL

Recording in the digital domain is the best from a SNR perspective and capturing the audio, period. But all the other stuff that happens to a digital file downstream is not, the industry simply has not figured it out, its gotten much better in the past 25yrs but its still a big mess, digital that is. 24bit is more than enough to capture and hear audio without any noise, at 24bit that gives something crazy like 144dB SNR, that is much wider than absolute silence and human threshold of hearing pain, nuts, that simply is not natural. But we do it because we can, but again that does not equate to "sounds best".

To me, you are having to convince yourself that your digital files sound best because inbetween songs you don't hear any noise, or a pop or click. You should know that the CD is probably not the best media to experience a high end listening session. It was never designed for that, it was designed to hold more minutes of music, that's all.

I had zero issues with what Dean explained.....but it's not both sides of the story.



I don't disagree with you, even though I much prefer CD's to vinyl and always have (though admittedly, the early CD's from the 80's generally sound pretty terrible to me now, much worse than even the cheapest vinyl that was common back then).

You are, of course, forgetting that the actual recording equipment (mic's, amps, etc.) do not capture the frequencies you are talking about and never have.  The extra kHz frequencies that are captured are not from the instruments.

I found this very informative, though it doesn't make the subject of "which sounds better" or is better any less subjective.

http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Myths_(Vinyl)

This part is of particular interest, especially nowadays:

Vinyl is often sourced from digital anyway

Since the mid-1970s, vinyl mastering houses began using digital delay lines instead of analog delays on the signal going to the lathe that cuts the spiral groove. So even in the increasingly unlikely event that 100% of the recording, mixing and mastering was done entirely using analog gear and media, the end of the vinyl mastering process may well have involved a conversion to digital and back.


Edited by infandous - May 16 2018 at 10:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2018 at 12:48
Not sure how this thread went from TFK to PT and SW. Shouldn't SW have his own thread? WinkTongue

Anyway, the topic of TFK came up with a friend of mine not too long ago. He didn't think they did much that is worthwhile after Unfold the Future but I disagreed. I think there were a few really good ones after that especially the Sum of No Evil and the banks of eden. Paradox Hotel has it's moments but over all is just not very strong for a double and pales compared to their earlier doubles. Still, I wouldn't say it's one of their worst albums.
When you list all the qualities that you despise and you realize you're describing yourself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2018 at 13:14
I have zero issue with vinyl cut from a digital source.......All new recordings are saved in the digital domain, recorded to hard drives or flash drives as 24bit files, even 32bit (which is not needed but can be done). There are still some studios that offer analog tape recording, more now than in the past 20 yrs.

But those digital recordings get ruined when mastered for CD which can only hold 16bit, then the loudness wars come into play which is still happening, simply no dynamics on CDs, way too much compression....horrid.
Vinyl cut from a well mastered/mixed digital file is utterly brilliant.....There are still many of the older engineers like Bernie Grundman and all the guys at Sterling Sound that know what to do for vinyl from a digital source. And the pressing plants are getting better every year, with even better QC than in the 70's......Optimal Media in Germany presses amazing quiet vinyl, which is really good for me since most prog related artists get records pressed by Optimal, MPO in France is excellent too. Pallas, RTI and MFSL in the US are doing amazing work also.

Follow your ears and that's all that matters......I grew up with records and will die with records, for me the CD was the fad, not the record.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2018 at 13:19
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Not sure how this thread went from TFK to PT and SW. Shouldn't SW have his own thread? WinkTongue

Anyway, the topic of TFK came up with a friend of mine not too long ago. He didn't think they did much that is worthwhile after Unfold the Future but I disagreed. I think there were a few really good ones after that especially the Sum of No Evil and the banks of eden. Paradox Hotel has it's moments but over all is just not very strong for a double and pales compared to their earlier doubles. Still, I wouldn't say it's one of their worst albums.

I agree......but its the only thread on this dying forum/website that still has a pulse. I probably am not helping so apologize for the SW pics/topic, but I knew Tom would appreciate my post on Beggs and he will see this thread, my bad Embarrassed.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2018 at 14:18
Monsters and men is one of prog rocks finest tracks from paradox. The vinyl argument is one of those that is identical to religious dogma. People who hear god in their heads are never going to believe he is a subjective delusion. Physics can prove that the sound through speakers is the same. But I posit that quantum effects at sub atomic levels in the gases that make up the atmosphere in my lounge would make each listening unique to each Planck unit of time in every possible vector of each quarks in every atom. I'm still loving the prog I ain't fussed about the devil in the details! However. No amount of digital technology is making me like Justin Timberlake!
Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2018 at 15:16
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Not sure how this thread went from TFK to PT and SW. Shouldn't SW have his own thread?†WinkTongue

Anyway, the topic of TFK came up with a friend of mine not too long ago. He didn't think they did much that is worthwhile after Unfold the Future but I disagreed. I think there were a few really good ones after that especially the Sum of No Evil and the banks of eden. Paradox Hotel has it's moments but over all is just not very strong for a double and pales compared to their earlier doubles. Still, I wouldn't say it's one of their worst albums.

I agree......but its the only thread on this dying forum/website that still has a pulse. I probably am not helping so apologize for the SW pics/topic, but I knew Tom would appreciate my post on Beggs and he will see this thread, my bad†Embarrassed.
Sorry guys - you know I love TFK
They have (vinylly) released Unfold The Future as a triple LP set ! I do have a lovely CD issue of it (shock, horror !!) so Iím umming and aahing about the vinyl (shock, horror again.....) coz thereís too many other LP releases Iím eager to get a hold of..
You say this forum is dying - indeed !! Look at the Prog Poll page - all old-hat things dug out of the aether (ether ??). Anyways, boring in a word.

Edited by Tom Ozric - May 16 2018 at 15:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2018 at 18:04
Who is Tom?
When you list all the qualities that you despise and you realize you're describing yourself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2018 at 18:07
[Monsters and men is one of prog rocks finest tracks from paradox.]

Yeah, great epic track for sure.
When you list all the qualities that you despise and you realize you're describing yourself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2018 at 18:15
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Who is Tom?
A nobody, a troll........I wouldnít bother with him
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2018 at 04:37
Just pre ordered the new spocks beard plus the sea within. And bought the latest samurai of prog too.

Edited by M27Barney - May 17 2018 at 04:39
Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2018 at 04:56
^ You dig Spockís Beard ?? Shame on you
Just AWESOME modern Prog. This is what itís all about.

Edited by Tom Ozric - May 17 2018 at 04:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2018 at 10:44
Just also pre-ordered The Sea Within......Yea there are a bunch more 12" records I want but gotta show restraint! LOL


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