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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

I never noticed anything "brutal" about Unfold.  But then I don't really have high end audio equipment (never have really) and my ears were probably already shot way back then (18 years ago!!).
Noticeable with headphones, what you DON'T hear is dynamics, resolution and separation of instruments. What you DO hear is one loudness level of all instruments..This is the brickwalling people describe where the volume is simply pushed to the wall.
I am assuming you are listening to the CD and not streaming it or an MP3 from back then. Like I said the CD was terribly fatiguing. With a higher end digital system you would only be able to tell the difference with both versions......Those are the Aha! moments...

With me it was Rush~Vapor Trails in 2002. I played that CD all the time, then started to hear about the bad mastering about 5yrs later, not till they issued a badly needed remix in 2013 did I have that Aha! moment.....


Yeah, I would probably notice it more if I heard the remaster.  I only ever have heard it on CD, and it's been a while since I listened to it.  What you are saying about the dynamics does seem to be what I remember.  Probably why it took me longer to appreciate than the previous albums as I felt something was "different".  Or course, musically it was much more wild and complex and far more jazzier than previous releases (though that was always an aspect of TFK's).  In any case, there is zero chance of me getting those remastered tracks since they only come with the vinyl, correct?  No big deal, I still love that album, regardless of any ear fatigue, and I've heard far worse albums when it comes to brick walling.
That's why I love TFK, that jazzy improv, some of that is lacking in recent releases........Here are all the issues of Unfold and yes right now the 2017 remix/remastered CD versions only available with the 3-LP set.

I'll sell you mine for a mere US$1,00000000000000.00 LOL, such a deal!
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I don't think Unfold The Future is actually brick wall limited.  To me that suggests it's audibly distorted like Rush's Vapor Trail's or the debut Flying Colors album.  Those two albums fatigue me, but UTF never did. Those can be verified by looking at waveforms that show the waveforms clipped off at the peaks.  I know I looked at them years ago, but I don't recall waveforms being clipped on the 2002 release of UTF.

Another reference to go by is this site:   http://dr.loudness-war.info/

Do a search for Flower Kings albums and click on the average dynamic range header to sort them by dynamic range.  There's no major difference between the 2002 mix and the 2017 remix from a dynamic range standpoint.  I suspect the main difference being heard is in the compression on individual tracks.  The 2017 remix does seem to reveal more and of course some parts were re-recorded, replaced, added, etc.

But I'm no audiophile and different things might fatigue different people.  I've played too much guitar and bass in loud bands (not to mention being 55 years old) to claim anything even approaching perfect hearing.

Edit:  And it's also possible some sounds that were used sound a bit harsh and/or not warm or whatever.  That could also be fatiguing.  I have an album by a local artist that I find unlistenable.  I expected to see waveforms clipping, but no - somehow the harshness and distortion was on individual tracks.


Edited by plasmatopia - November 19 2020 at 13:48
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Well I don't think it was originally recorded hot to create any distortion or sibilance but the 2002 version has too much compression, which is very common during that period. Clearly the case is a remix of those featured tracks has improved the experience and the other being remastered, which meant probably just a lower of overall volume has helped.
The DR website is a good reference, but always depends on what gear is being used by the contributor.
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For Unfold the Future, there is also a 3rd version: the "promo version"...


Right now, I am comparing the three versions. The promo version is less compressed than the official version, but sounds "unfinished"... well, it's promo! The 2017 remix sounds cheesy to my ears. But I'm wondering: is the 2017 digital remix the same as the 2017 LP remix? I don't know the LP one.

So to be honest, the best version for me is the 2002 official version, even though it's pretty compressed. I love it because bass & drums are loud in the mix!

But I must admit it's fun to listen to three very different versions of the same GREAT album!! Wink
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I would agree the 2017 remix of UTF sounds kinda cheesy in some respects.  I do like the newer details that Roine threw in here and there.  But I agree that having the drums and bass louder on the original feels more satisfying, at least to me.

The numbers in the database are arrived at by software which analyzes the data on the CD.  That would not be subject to differences in equipment.
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I only had the original release from 2002, I think this album is incredible. What always drove me nuts was the heavy compression the CD had, it was difficult at times to listen to and really fatiguing. I was able to get a nice deal on the 2017 reissue/remaster/remix LP version including the CDs. In the liner notes Roine confirms his displeasure for the album as it was originally released, calling it "painfully brutal". LOL

The CDs are better, the 3 brilliant songs he remixed bring out much more detail and musicality as he pushes certain sounds front and back. The rest of the songs are remastered as 24/96kHz, of course the CDs are redbook truncated to 16bit.....But man the LPs are amazing sounding!! The soundstage is much wider and low frequencies are more pronounced which suffered on the original mix, plus its not compressed to hell anymore, there is dynamics and resolution now........I'm a happy boy!!



I have the vinyl, but don't really trust my turntable.  It has some issues.  Someday I'd love to hear the vinyl version to hear if it's significantly different from the CD.  Seems like Roine mentioned it was mixed differently from the CD, but maybe I'm remembering that wrong.
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Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

I'm pretty pleased so far.  I'll need more listens but it's certainly the best since SUM for me (though not on the same level as that album).  I think the thing I like the least is the cover.  It's not bad, but it's possibly my least favorite Roger Dean cover.  For some reason it also bothers me that there are tiny figures in it (presumably the band).  Not sure why, just think it would look better without that.  But that's a small niggle really........I certainly seen worse covers, even on Flower King albums.  The music is what matters most, and so far I'm enjoying it.

Interesting to finally hear some thoughts from you about this album.  Kinda surprised we haven't discussed it more already.  Smile

That said, I'm still not quite sure how Islands fits into the grand scheme of TFK albums for me.  Initially there was a lot of it that didn't move me much, but that happens to me more and more and I'm not sure if that's because I've heard so many TFK albums or I'm just turning into an old and jaded prog head.

With repeated listens it has grown on me quite a bit.  Listening to it on my studio monitors really did a lot to open it up for me.  This one has a lot of interesting details that had somewhat been missing from recent TFK albums and in that sense feels like a throwback to the early albums.  And those details really make for a satisfying listen.  But most of the time I'm listening in a moving vehicle.  In that case many of those details fall by the wayside and I'm left to think about song structures and melodies.  More of the "view from 100 miles up" sort of thing.  And I'm starting to like that viewpoint too.  Familiarity has a way of making things that didn't seem to be working initially to become normal.

Like songs or sections of songs that we'd normally expect (as TFK fans) to be longer but aren't and instead seem to end prematurely.  After a few spins it seems normal I guess.  Or then I start to think even the shorter idea works in the context of all the songs.  Maybe I need to go 1000 miles up or spin the album 20 more times to really see how it all fits together.

I'm glad they tried a different approach though.
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by plasmatopia plasmatopia wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I only had the original release from 2002, I think this album is incredible. What always drove me nuts was the heavy compression the CD had, it was difficult at times to listen to and really fatiguing. I was able to get a nice deal on the 2017 reissue/remaster/remix LP version including the CDs. In the liner notes Roine confirms his displeasure for the album as it was originally released, calling it "painfully brutal". LOL

The CDs are better, the 3 brilliant songs he remixed bring out much more detail and musicality as he pushes certain sounds front and back. The rest of the songs are remastered as 24/96kHz, of course the CDs are redbook truncated to 16bit.....But man the LPs are amazing sounding!! The soundstage is much wider and low frequencies are more pronounced which suffered on the original mix, plus its not compressed to hell anymore, there is dynamics and resolution now........I'm a happy boy!!



I have the vinyl, but don't really trust my turntable.  It has some issues.  Someday I'd love to hear the vinyl version to hear if it's significantly different from the CD.  Seems like Roine mentioned it was mixed differently from the CD, but maybe I'm remembering that wrong.
I would not say it is "significantly different", but rather tweaked here and there to bring out more dynamics and resolution due to less compression. The remix gives a different flavor but depending on your system resolution it may not be too noticeable. Generally, normally a good engineer will master the LP version differently than for CD pressing, you simply should not add the volume of compression when mastering for LP, so far at least for TFK records I have they are mastered very well for LP.

I'm happy to have both versions now, I have the massive enjoyment and immersion of my LP/analog version as well the CD version for portable play situations like planes, trains and automobiles.
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Islands.
My delayed copy has arrived, spun some yesterday after stuffing my face with turkey and all the fixins. 

This one will take a few spins to sink in. The 3-LP/2-CD package is excellent, comes in a slipcase with 1 gatefold holding LP1&2 and a single sleeve holding LP3, the CDs come in a plastic sleeve. The gatefold has all the lyrics and other liner notes with different band pictures on back covers.

The pressing quality is stellar, these are done by Optimal Media in Germany who is one of the best IMO, everything I get from them is as perfect as can be with no surface issues no noise at all, a flea fart makes louder noise than what I hear in between tracks.
The mix and mastering is very good to really really good, I can't say excellent as Roine still is not at a Steven Wilson, Bernie Grundman or Kevin Gray level. He's still doing a bit too much digital processing, but so far these records sound fantastic.

I really like side II so far, side I I'm hearing some Queen type rhythm guitar work..........but as stated I need several more spins to let it all soak in.

So far I'm very pleased with the direction of the music, more of what I've come to expect from The Flower Kings. 
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Islands.
My delayed copy has arrived, spun some yesterday after stuffing my face with turkey and all the fixins. 

This one will take a few spins to sink in. The 3-LP/2-CD package is excellent, comes in a slipcase with 1 gatefold holding LP1&2 and a single sleeve holding LP3, the CDs come in a plastic sleeve. The gatefold has all the lyrics and other liner notes with different band pictures on back covers.

The pressing quality is stellar, these are done by Optimal Media in Germany who is one of the best IMO, everything I get from them is as perfect as can be with no surface issues no noise at all, a flea fart makes louder noise than what I hear in between tracks.
The mix and mastering is very good to really really good, I can't say excellent as Roine still is not at a Steven Wilson, Bernie Grundman or Kevin Gray level. He's still doing a bit too much digital processing, but so far these records sound fantastic.

I really like side II so far, side I I'm hearing some Queen type rhythm guitar work..........but as stated I need several more spins to let it all soak in.

So far I'm very pleased with the direction of the music, more of what I've come to expect from The Flower Kings. 


 

Its starting to sink in and its an excellent album imho
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I love it. A lot.
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Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

I love it. A lot.

Enough to marry it?? Tongue
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I can't believe I'm rating the new Flower Kings album higher than the new Wobbler album, if someone had told me I would do this a year ago i'd probably be totally dumbstruck, but.... this album is just amazing and I love it so much start to finish Smile Perhaps my only 5 star release of the year.... still going back and forth
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What are your top 20 Flower Kings songs in no particular order? Just curious.
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Islands.
My delayed copy has arrived, spun some yesterday after stuffing my face with turkey and all the fixins. 

This one will take a few spins to sink in. The 3-LP/2-CD package is excellent, comes in a slipcase with 1 gatefold holding LP1&2 and a single sleeve holding LP3, the CDs come in a plastic sleeve. The gatefold has all the lyrics and other liner notes with different band pictures on back covers.

The pressing quality is stellar, these are done by Optimal Media in Germany who is one of the best IMO, everything I get from them is as perfect as can be with no surface issues no noise at all, a flea fart makes louder noise than what I hear in between tracks.
The mix and mastering is very good to really really good, I can't say excellent as Roine still is not at a Steven Wilson, Bernie Grundman or Kevin Gray level. He's still doing a bit too much digital processing, but so far these records sound fantastic.

I really like side II so far, side I I'm hearing some Queen type rhythm guitar work..........but as stated I need several more spins to let it all soak in.

So far I'm very pleased with the direction of the music, more of what I've come to expect from The Flower Kings.





Maybe I'm not understanding you, but you mention "too much digital processing".  Steven Wilson does all his mixes and remixes digitally.  Of course, I know he skips mastering for his own work, though it's usually up to the bands he does the remixing for whether or not it gets remastered as well (he doesn't do mastering at all).
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Originally posted by GoliathTMV GoliathTMV wrote:

What are your top 20 Flower Kings songs in no particular order? Just curious.
Well, I have made a top 20 songs just before the release of Islands. Now I just tried to "update" my list, but I realized that no tracks from Islands can compete with my top 20 songs. I still love the new album! But to me there are no amazing/outstanding/masterpiece tracks on it...

So here is my top 20 TFK songs:

1. Garden of Dreams (59:24)
2. The Truth Will Set You Free (31:01)
3. I Am the Sun (25:44)
4. Stardust We Are (25:03)
5. Devil's Playground (25:26)
6. In the Eyes of the World (10:38)
7. There Is More to This World (10:07)
8. Love Supreme (19:43)
9. Circus Brimstone (12:03)
10. Rumble Fish Twist (8:05)
11. A King's Prayer (6:01)
12. The Melting Pot (5:48)
13. Hit Me with a Hit (5:31)
14. Serious Dreamers (9:00)
15. Underdog (5:29)
16. The Judas Kiss (7:39)
17. Train to Nowhere (3:49)
18. Just This Once (7:54)
19. Go West Judas (7:47)
20. Last Carnivor (4:22)

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Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Islands.
My delayed copy has arrived, spun some yesterday after stuffing my face with turkey and all the fixins. 

This one will take a few spins to sink in. The 3-LP/2-CD package is excellent, comes in a slipcase with 1 gatefold holding LP1&2 and a single sleeve holding LP3, the CDs come in a plastic sleeve. The gatefold has all the lyrics and other liner notes with different band pictures on back covers.

The pressing quality is stellar, these are done by Optimal Media in Germany who is one of the best IMO, everything I get from them is as perfect as can be with no surface issues no noise at all, a flea fart makes louder noise than what I hear in between tracks.
The mix and mastering is very good to really really good, I can't say excellent as Roine still is not at a Steven Wilson, Bernie Grundman or Kevin Gray level. He's still doing a bit too much digital processing, but so far these records sound fantastic.

I really like side II so far, side I I'm hearing some Queen type rhythm guitar work..........but as stated I need several more spins to let it all soak in.

So far I'm very pleased with the direction of the music, more of what I've come to expect from The Flower Kings.





Maybe I'm not understanding you, but you mention "too much digital processing".  Steven Wilson does all his mixes and remixes digitally.  Of course, I know he skips mastering for his own work, though it's usually up to the bands he does the remixing for whether or not it gets remastered as well (he doesn't do mastering at all).

Correct, they all do it in the digital domain. Steven is just more refined in his mixing ability as well the others I mentioned. With new recordings they all are in the digital domain, Roine is just not at that level yet.

The others are Executive Chefs at 5Star restaurants.........Mr Stolt is an Associate Executive Chef at a 3Star restaurant. His skills need some time.....Engineers like Bernie, Bob Ludwig, Kevin Gray, Doug Sax (RIP) did it for a living. Steven has the edge over Roine because he has such a great ear for analog sound and has been engineering music for quite sometime as well all his experience in remixing and remastering projects.
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Originally posted by GoliathTMV GoliathTMV wrote:

What are your top 20 Flower Kings songs in no particular order? Just curious.

All of them....ClapTongue
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by GoliathTMV GoliathTMV wrote:

What are your top 20 Flower Kings songs in no particular order? Just curious.

All of them....ClapTongue 



 





ClapLOLAll of them...ClapLOLNow that`s LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL 
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Quote 14. Serious Dreamers (9:00)

I love this song, it's one of those unknown TFK gems that absolutely rock.
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