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listen 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: December 05 2007 Location: Portland OR Status: Offline Points: 352 |
 Topic: Scorpions for Krautrock or prog relatedPosted: January 30 2009 at 17:54 |
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The scorpions are well known for a number of catchy hard rock songs they released in the 80's but back in 1972 they released their first album titled "Lonesome Crow" on the famous Brain label (which signed a huge number of prog bands, check it out! - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_Records), which is a progressive psychedelic rock/hard rock affair that is not far from the sound of contemporary krautrock bands like Guru Guru, Gaa, etc. as well as bands like cream, black sabbath, early rush and a number of bands I can't pin down right yet (I just got it today). Besides belonging in the archives, the album is also a surprisingly good one (their well known stuff is not really my cup of tea, although I appreciate most of their music).
listen especially to the 13 minute title track for progressive qualities (mostly tangential song structure, melodic development / mix of styles, mix of introspective and extraverted moods, and moderate use of psychedelic effects): http://www.youtube.com/watch? The 10-minute title track from their second album Fly to the Rainbow also displays progressive elements: it is structured tangentially, with 3 parts, displays a mix of introspective and extraverted moods, and includes some classical guitar, psychedelic guitar and psychedelic effects: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGDefpjTqFY To my ears, this reaches (at least) the level of progressiveness of the proggiest Black Sabbath, Journey, Led Zeppelin, The Who, Jimi Hendrix, Doors, etc, as well as many bands listed as Krautrock on this site, including Arktis, Dschinn, Jeronimo, Pacific Sound, etc. And lets remember to evaluate "progressiveness" in a krautrock sense as it does border on kraut. And on top of the above, the Scorpions were pioneers of metal.. Edited by listen - May 11 2011 at 03:58 |
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Now is all there is. Be before you think!
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: January 16 2008 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 15745 |
Posted: January 30 2009 at 18:01 |
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I wouldn't say Krautrock by any means... Though for Prog-Related, for their first album, does make some sense, though I completely doubt for their inclusion.
Their debut is definitely not as their late records, but still it doesn't make enough, IMO. It's barely related, which a whole lot of bands were rejected for the same thing. Edited by cacho - January 30 2009 at 18:16 |
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008 Location: Beasty Heart Status: Offline Points: 32181 |
Posted: January 30 2009 at 18:03 |
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No.
That's all that needs to be said. |
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listen
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007 Location: Portland OR Status: Offline Points: 352 |
Posted: January 30 2009 at 18:17 |
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Have you listened to it? To my ears, this album is definitely no less progressive than the music of a LOT of bands on this site
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Now is all there is. Be before you think!
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group 
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 32844 |
Posted: January 30 2009 at 18:19 |
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I am intrigued.
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008 Location: Beasty Heart Status: Offline Points: 32181 |
Posted: January 30 2009 at 18:21 |
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I despise the "If X is here, then Y must be" argument. We've made mistakes before (IMO), and the collabs at this try their best (yet I'm still entitled to my opinion). That does not justify more mistakes. I'm beginning to think that many people are considering anything above average pop music to be prog or progressive, and that's simply not the case. There's plenty of music in between art and pop music that does not belong here, even in Related. And yes, I heard it. I stand by my opinion. Edited by MovingPictures07 - January 30 2009 at 18:22 |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 64438 |
Posted: January 30 2009 at 18:54 |
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At the moment I don't support the Scorps for inclusion to ProgRelated, however; their material with Michael Schenker and particularly Uli Roth is among the most important in progressing metal, especially the guitar-oriented tech forwarded by Randy Rhoads, Brian May, Schenker's solo work, EVH, and Yngwie. The Scorps were doing very high-end hard rock for the time, and their impact should not be underestimated.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: January 30 2009 at 21:38 |
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I believe that the Scorpions achieved way too much success for too many here at PA to truly admit that they really haven't listened to the album(s) that are cited as supporting their candidacy (no matter the sub-genre).
As for the "X is here, why not Y" arguement ... why is it acceptable to use comparisons and references to other bands already here when some bands are proposed, but not others ? It can be a valid way of supporting your case either way. The worst part - it comes back to my first comment - if the group you propose is or was popular, then don't expect to be able defend your submission by mentioning other comparable bands already in PA. As this discussion progresses ( or regresses as with too many other commercially successful acts), ask each detractor is they have listened to Lonesome Crow, or the albums that the Scorpions made with Uli Roth. Then follow up with the question as to what albums have they actually heard from the Scorpions ... Then wonder why frustrations abound with anyone but those who suggest the obscure for inclusion ... Edited by debrewguy - January 30 2009 at 21:41 |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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UMUR
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 3011 |
Posted: January 31 2009 at 08:32 |
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Now that´s talk I can relate to debrewguy. Many people commenting on suggestions haven´t listened to anything but the MySpace songs ( if even that) and seldom the albums that the one suggesting the artist mentions as being their most progressive. This is particularly true in the case of famous artists IMO. It´s such a struggle to get anyone to evaluate artists like that. Personally I pick my fights and leave the hard ones alone ( with a few exceptions of course). I simply don´t have time to discuss for hours and hours if it´s not a band I feel something special for. It´s really a shame. Valuable collaborator time is wasted.
About the Scorpions I only know their eighties stuff so I won´t comment on their inclusion here but only hope that the ones evaluating this suggestion listens to that first album as the guy suggesting the artist suggests.
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fusionfreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 23 2007 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 1317 |
Posted: January 31 2009 at 08:49 |
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No!1st album is good with progressive moments(the 13 minute track is a proof) but Scorpions are not Krautrock at all:no psychedelic(and sometimes drug induced)jams,no electro acoustic effects,apparently no political commitment,moreover they seem to lack madness and don't feel like being visionary.I also would like to add that I recently watched a documentary about Krautrock where Scorpions were considered as being part of this movement.Sorry for saying that but Scorpions have nothing to do with the likes of Can,Ash Ra Tempel,Amon Duul 2,Guru Guru......By the way Scorpions took part in a french TV program(it was in the nineties)called Club Dorothée where they played part of their bullsh*t such as Still Loving You!
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I was born in the land of Mahavishnu,not so far from Kobaia.I'm looking for the world
of searchers with the help from crimson king |
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crimson87
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 03 2008 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 1818 |
Posted: January 31 2009 at 10:40 |
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No way! I don't think having a 13 min track is enough argument to get them here and even on Krautrock which will be totally out of context. The rolling stones also have an 11 minute track
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 32844 |
Posted: January 31 2009 at 11:13 |
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"Lonesome Crow" is a good song, anyway.
And "Leave Me" It's really dated, though with a 60's sound. I would have pegged them as earlier than 1972 recordings. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: January 31 2009 at 11:42 |
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True - I saw then in '77 and they were well on their way to being a successful hard rock band by then. I've never heard Lonesome Crow, but will if they are proposed for Prog Related.
The IfXthenY argument is valid for highlighting a band for suggestion, but not for evaluation and subsequent addition. For example if band "X" is here then perhaps we should consider band "Y" for inclusion, however, once Band "Y" has been dentified as a contender they must be evaluated on their own merits without the association to band "X". To that end The Scorpions must be evaluated on their own, and not in relation to any bands already included, and using the albums from the appropriate era.
When it comes to Popular vs. Obscure I think the reasoning is self-evident - ifXthenYcan either be used positively or negatively - for most Popular artists it is often used in it's unhelpful negative form by comparing them with yet another well known and possibly controversial band, while for Obscure bands it is more often used in a helpful positive form to give the evaluator a reference point to compare them too.
It is sometimes the case that Band "X" is mentioned because the person proposing Band "Y" does not approve of the addition of Band "X" and sees Band "Y" as being more valid as a result. This is not a direct musical comparision, but more an emotional one - we tend not get this emotional comparision with Obscure bands.
Of course, if you mention two Popular bands you double your chances of getting a reaction because more people would have heard of one of them - mention two Obscure bands and you halve your chances because fewer people would have heard of both of them.
If both band "X" and band "Y" are already accepted and band "Y" scheduled for inclusion, then the IfXthenY argument can be used in the placing of band "Y" into an appropriate category.
Sad but true - then listen saying "this album is definitely no less progressive than the music of a LOT of bands on this site" is not really mentioning comparable bands and does need some deeper qualifiaction or additional verification.
Another sad fact is many suggestions for Obscure bands are overlooked completely - there have been 51 unanswered threads in Suggest New Bands and 66 in Unsigned Bands over the past year - that's before we start counting the number of suggestions that have replies but never made it to the evaluation stage. At least Popular bands have the head-start of having a ground-swell of opinion that results in discussion in the first place even if that means they are hampered by their reputation.
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What?
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Queen By-Tor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 13 2006 Location: Xanadu Status: Offline Points: 16111 |
Posted: January 31 2009 at 12:49 |
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German =/= Krautrock
 As for PR, I can't say. I've actually never heard an early scorpions record. Atavachron is right though - Schenker and Roth should definitely be evaluated - I would say that Roth's take on Neo-Classical definitely deserves to be here. |
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Scratchy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 16 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 110 |
Posted: February 03 2009 at 03:18 |
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I am a fan of the Scorpions.They are a very difficult group to classify really,even within each period.The Lonesome Crow album group was basically a different group than when Uli Jon Roth took over.When he took over the guitar duties the Scorpions had basically disbanded but emalgamated with Uli's Dawn Road group (3 members) with the 2 remaining Scorpion members.The sound changed from their hard Psychodelic sound with jazz/classical avant-garde guitar playing from 17 year old Michael Schenker to a hard progressive rock / rock & roll fusion (with Uli).Uli Jon Roth's guitar playing was absolutely oustanding however Eric Patrick Clapton, James Marshall Hendrix, John Dawson Winter III (johnny winter)
Jean-Baptiste Reinhardt , Jan Akkerman , Jeffery Arnold Beck , Andrés Segovia Torres Jean-Baptiste Reinhardt, Jan Akkerman, Jeffery Arnold Beck, Andrés Segovia Torres Yehudi Menuhin (violin), Frédéric François Chopin being his influences.The rhythm playing of Rudolph Schenker & the percussion was basic hard rock.As time went on the group was influenced by the increasingly more popular metal sound developed by Judas Priest etc. which lead to Uli Jon Roth leaving the group in 1978. The Lovedrive album actually has Uli Jon Roth & a returning Michael Schenker.This album had some tracks that would interest Progressive metal fans but also had basic 80's style power metal as well.They gradually developed a more commercial metal sound from there on.Which is the time I started to loose interest in them, although Animal Magnitism still had some adventurous musical elements on it , athough with a doom laden feel (Meine's vocal problems adding to the Doominess - range limited at top end).Since then my only real interest with them has been the superb vocals of Klaus Meine although lyrics are dumbed down since this period.
In 1973 Uli Jon Roth liked these albums :-
Wilhelm Furtwängler, Johannes Brahms, "Violin Concerto" Title 77, D major (Joconda De Vito, RAI Turin Orchestra 1952 was estimated to be record.)
Herbert von Karajan Ludwig van Beethoven , Berliner Philharmoniker 1962 Herbert von Karajan, Ludwig van Beethoven, Symphony No. 5 C minor works 67 "fate", (Berliner Philharmoniker 1962 March or April 1982 and recorded 11 or recording is unknown) Jimi Hendrix , AXIS: BOLD AS LOVE , ELECTRIC LADY LAND , BAND OF GYPSIES Jimi Hendrix, The AXIS: BOLD AS LOVE, and the ELECTRIC LADY LAND, and the BAND OF GYPSIES, Jeff Beck , BLOW BY BLOW Jeff Beck, The BLOW BY BLOW, YES , RELAYER ( The Gates of Delirium ) YES, the RELAYER (especially "The Gates of Delirium") |
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Scratchy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 16 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 110 |
Posted: February 03 2009 at 03:41 |
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Lonesome Crow album period (1972) - psychodelic / space rock
1973 - 1978 period - heavy prog
1979 - 1981 - power metal / proto progressive metal
1981 - 2000's - power metal
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: February 03 2009 at 07:02 |
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Was the bullsh*t part really necessary? I wonder why some people simply can't show at least a minimum amount of respect for the musicians involved.  |
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fusionfreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 23 2007 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 1317 |
Posted: February 03 2009 at 07:58 |
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I know Uli Jon Roth and Michael Schenker are gifted musicians.Moreover I like Scorpions first three albums.It's just that I don't like when people who can make good music decide to play songs only for the money and it was the case in this children TV program.Moreover I'm not sure that musicians always respect their audiences.To conclude I think that going to concerts and buying cds is a proof of respect!
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I was born in the land of Mahavishnu,not so far from Kobaia.I'm looking for the world
of searchers with the help from crimson king |
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24392 |
Posted: February 03 2009 at 08:09 |
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Sorry to contradict you, but if you don't like an album, you have the right not to buy it - just as the musicians have the right to play whatever music they see fit. I may dislike commercial music, but let's be honest for once - playing 'for the money' is certainly not the same as peddling drugs or weapons, or trafficking in human beings.
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johnobvious
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 11 2006 Location: Nebraska Status: Offline Points: 1361 |
Posted: February 03 2009 at 08:25 |
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Lonesome Crow is outstanding and Fly to the Rainbow could be included in the Prog Related discussion as well. Both are great and worth checking out. In Trance is good as well but the beginning of their transformation to losing any prog influences. I loved this band for a long time, favoring their early stuff. Then they released Crazy World and that was the end.
If that album ever got reviewed on here, I would probably throw up in my mouth a little.
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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday
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Scorpions for Krautrock or prog related
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MovingPictures07 wrote: