Forum Home Forum Home > Topics not related to music > General discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - The Christian Thread
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedThe Christian Thread

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 8485868788 92>
Author
Message
dtguitarfan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2013 at 05:39
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Taken out of context it can mean whatever you want it to mean, that's the point of it:
 
Quote But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? Shew me the tribute money." And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, "Whose is this image and superscription?"

They say unto him, "Caesar's."  Then saith he unto them, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's"

It was a trick answer to a trick question.

I agree.

Actually, this conversation ended up inspiring part of a blog post I am working on, which I am calling "Five Misunderstood Non-Violent Resistance Teachings of Jesus" - I thought I'd share what I've got for "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s":
This statement is commonly used as a sort of proof that Jesus was for "separation of church and state" - or to put it in other words, a depoliticization of Jesus.  The message many would desire us to take from this teaching of Jesus was that we should not concern ourselves with political things, but concentrate on spiritual matters so we can "go to heaven" (which, by the way, is not a Biblical concept).

But there are a number of problems with this interpretation of the scenario in this passage.  The larger passage shows us that the officials of the religious authority complex were looking for a way to arrest Jesus, and were planning to catch Jesus in his own words.  What this indicates is that when they asked Jesus if it was right to pay the imperial tax, they expected Jesus to answer in a way that would implicate him in treason so that he could be arrested on the spot.  For Jesus to answer in the affirmative would have negated his teachings up to this point, but to answer in the negative would result in an end to his movement.  So Jesus had to come up with a clever answer to get out of this trap that they had set.

When you put Jesus statement above into the context, you find some interesting things - first of which is the fact that Jesus asks someone to bring him a denarius - the coin which would have been used for this particular tax.  What's interesting is that Jesus didn't have a denarius of his own.  Why wouldn't Jesus have one of his own sitting in his own pocket - why would he have to ask someone to bring him one?

A denarius bore a picture of Tiberius on the front with the inscription: "Caesar Augustus Tiberius, son of the Divine Augustus".  This inscription indicated the divinity of Caesar - he was to be regarded as a god in the Roman culture of the empire cult.  This did not mesh well with Jewish beliefs, which included a little command that went "you shall have no other gods before me" and another command about not making graven images.  To even possess this coin could be seen as idolatry to a Jew.  So Jesus didn't even have one on him!

Additionally, the way Jesus words his statement in Mark 12:17 is very interesting.  He starts his statement with: "give back to Caesar what is Caesar's".  The question this statement raises is: what belongs to Caesar?  In other words - some things don't belong to him.  Also, how is it that you're giving back what already belonged to him?

The way Jesus' statement is worded indicates that if you have received benefits from Caesar, you should pay him back according to your debt.  In other words, if you want to protest the unjust taxes, you have no right to do so if you are living off of the benefits of the government.  If you want to protest the unjust system, you should remove yourself completely from the system first - which we see that Jesus has done, since he possesses no money at the time he is asked this question.

Mohandas K. Gandhi wrote about this passage:

Quote Jesus evaded the direct question put to him because it was a trap. He was in no way bound to answer it. He therefore asked to see the coin for taxes. And then said with withering scorn, "How can you who traffic in Caesar's coins and thus receive what to you are benefits of Caesar's rule refuse to pay taxes?" Jesus' whole preaching and practice point unmistakably to noncooperation, which necessarily includes nonpayment of taxes.


The second half of the statement in Mark 12:17 is also very interesting - Jesus says to give to God what is God's.  This statement is a parallel statement - in the first half of the statement, Jesus says to give a coin which bears the image of Caesar back to Caesar.  In the second half of the statement, he makes a parallel statement - the Jewish belief is that all people were made in the image of God.  As the coin bears the image of Caesar, so all people bear the image of God.  So what Jesus is saying in this statement is that we should give the whole of our being over to God!  This was a radical message of resistance, because Jesus was saying that Caesar's authority was limited, and God's authority was unlimited!

Dale Glass-Hess wrote:

Quote It is inconceivable to me that Jesus would teach that some spheres of human activity lie outside the authority of God. Are we to heed Caesar when he says to go to war or support war-making when Jesus says in other places that we shall not kill? No! My perception of this incident is that Jesus does not answer the question about the morality of paying taxes to Caesar, but that he throws it back on the people to decide.




Edited by dtguitarfan - October 24 2013 at 05:42
Back to Top
dtguitarfan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2013 at 07:37
Update: went ahead and posted my new blog post.
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2013 at 08:18
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


A denarius bore a picture of Tiberius on the front with the inscription: "Caesar Augustus Tiberius, son of the Divine Augustus".  This inscription indicated the divinity of Caesar - he was to be regarded as a god in the Roman culture of the empire cult. 

Nope. The divinity applied the his dead (step) father Augustus and was honoured posthumously by the senate, Tiberius was never deified even after his death and was never regarded as a god. The Jews didn't have a problem with Augustus as he treated them rather favourably, Tiberius was tolerated. The Revolt and subsequent wars came much later with Caligula.
What?
Back to Top
dtguitarfan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2013 at 10:02
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


A denarius bore a picture of Tiberius on the front with the inscription: "Caesar Augustus Tiberius, son of the Divine Augustus".  This inscription indicated the divinity of Caesar - he was to be regarded as a god in the Roman culture of the empire cult. 

Nope. The divinity applied the his dead (step) father Augustus and was honoured posthumously by the senate, Tiberius was never deified even after his death and was never regarded as a god. The Jews didn't have a problem with Augustus as he treated them rather favourably, Tiberius was tolerated. The Revolt and subsequent wars came much later with Caligula.

Have you ever heard of the Imperial Cult, Dean?  I'm not just making stuff up....
Back to Top
timothy leary View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2013 at 10:37
What is your point? Jews never worshipped Roman men
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2013 at 10:59
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


A denarius bore a picture of Tiberius on the front with the inscription: "Caesar Augustus Tiberius, son of the Divine Augustus".  This inscription indicated the divinity of Caesar - he was to be regarded as a god in the Roman culture of the empire cult. 

Nope. The divinity applied the his dead (step) father Augustus and was honoured posthumously by the senate, Tiberius was never deified even after his death and was never regarded as a god. The Jews didn't have a problem with Augustus as he treated them rather favourably, Tiberius was tolerated. The Revolt and subsequent wars came much later with Caligula.

Have you ever heard of the Imperial Cult, Dean?  I'm not just making stuff up....
Yes I've heard of the imperial cult -  Augustus created it and it does not make the living Caesar a deity. The deifying of Augustus was an honorific bestowed after his death, Tiberius was not deified at all. This was a new Roman idea at the time and not in the traditional pantheon of Roman gods - however the tradition of deifying the venerable dead first established by Tiberius on his step-father endures in Rome to this day with the attributing of "divinity" to mortals on a regular basis - the last being a priest from Malta called George Preca (who died in 1962) in 2007 though many have been beatified since then (half-way to divinity). The Latin Divi also translates as Saint

What?
Back to Top
dtguitarfan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2013 at 12:56
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


A denarius bore a picture of Tiberius on the front with the inscription: "Caesar Augustus Tiberius, son of the Divine Augustus".  This inscription indicated the divinity of Caesar - he was to be regarded as a god in the Roman culture of the empire cult. 

Nope. The divinity applied the his dead (step) father Augustus and was honoured posthumously by the senate, Tiberius was never deified even after his death and was never regarded as a god. The Jews didn't have a problem with Augustus as he treated them rather favourably, Tiberius was tolerated. The Revolt and subsequent wars came much later with Caligula.

Have you ever heard of the Imperial Cult, Dean?  I'm not just making stuff up....
Yes I've heard of the imperial cult -  Augustus created it and it does not make the living Caesar a deity. The deifying of Augustus was an honorific bestowed after his death, Tiberius was not deified at all. This was a new Roman idea at the time and not in the traditional pantheon of Roman gods - however the tradition of deifying the venerable dead first established by Tiberius on his step-father endures in Rome to this day with the attributing of "divinity" to mortals on a regular basis - the last being a priest from Malta called George Preca (who died in 1962) in 2007 though many have been beatified since then (half-way to divinity). The Latin Divi also translates as Saint


You don't have to literally "make someone a living deity" in order to have idolatrous attitudes toward them.  And people of all faiths know this intuitively - we're always talking about our idols, those being the things we are so dependent on that we feel like we can't do without them.  And many of the practices that the Romans had insisted their conquered people do in order to show fealty would have been considered idolatrous by Jews.  I am arguing that simply carrying a coin with the Caesar's image and the words "son of the Divine Augustus" would have been considered by many Jews of the day to be breaking Torah.  We don't need to get into an argument about the difference between gods and demi-gods and the difference between Augustus and Tiberius for my argument to be a valid one.
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2013 at 13:38
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


A denarius bore a picture of Tiberius on the front with the inscription: "Caesar Augustus Tiberius, son of the Divine Augustus".  This inscription indicated the divinity of Caesar - he was to be regarded as a god in the Roman culture of the empire cult. 

Nope. The divinity applied the his dead (step) father Augustus and was honoured posthumously by the senate, Tiberius was never deified even after his death and was never regarded as a god. The Jews didn't have a problem with Augustus as he treated them rather favourably, Tiberius was tolerated. The Revolt and subsequent wars came much later with Caligula.

Have you ever heard of the Imperial Cult, Dean?  I'm not just making stuff up....
Yes I've heard of the imperial cult -  Augustus created it and it does not make the living Caesar a deity. The deifying of Augustus was an honorific bestowed after his death, Tiberius was not deified at all. This was a new Roman idea at the time and not in the traditional pantheon of Roman gods - however the tradition of deifying the venerable dead first established by Tiberius on his step-father endures in Rome to this day with the attributing of "divinity" to mortals on a regular basis - the last being a priest from Malta called George Preca (who died in 1962) in 2007 though many have been beatified since then (half-way to divinity). The Latin Divi also translates as Saint


You don't have to literally "make someone a living deity" in order to have idolatrous attitudes toward them.  And people of all faiths know this intuitively - we're always talking about our idols, those being the things we are so dependent on that we feel like we can't do without them.  And many of the practices that the Romans had insisted their conquered people do in order to show fealty would have been considered idolatrous by Jews.  I am arguing that simply carrying a coin with the Caesar's image and the words "son of the Divine Augustus" would have been considered by many Jews of the day to be breaking Torah.  We don't need to get into an argument about the difference between gods and demi-gods and the difference between Augustus and Tiberius for my argument to be a valid one.
But you do because of the concessions Augustus made with Herod regarding Judea and judaism that were still in effect at that time. (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0002_0_01605.html). You also have to consider the pharisees, sadducees and other sects who also were permitted to function freely under Roman occupation. Remember also that the Render unto Caesar comment was directed to the pharisees and that Jesus was first tried by the Sanhedrin before being passed to Pilot, then to Herod, and then back to Pilot.
What?
Back to Top
dtguitarfan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2013 at 15:04
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


A denarius bore a picture of Tiberius on the front with the inscription: "Caesar Augustus Tiberius, son of the Divine Augustus".  This inscription indicated the divinity of Caesar - he was to be regarded as a god in the Roman culture of the empire cult. 

Nope. The divinity applied the his dead (step) father Augustus and was honoured posthumously by the senate, Tiberius was never deified even after his death and was never regarded as a god. The Jews didn't have a problem with Augustus as he treated them rather favourably, Tiberius was tolerated. The Revolt and subsequent wars came much later with Caligula.

Have you ever heard of the Imperial Cult, Dean?  I'm not just making stuff up....
Yes I've heard of the imperial cult -  Augustus created it and it does not make the living Caesar a deity. The deifying of Augustus was an honorific bestowed after his death, Tiberius was not deified at all. This was a new Roman idea at the time and not in the traditional pantheon of Roman gods - however the tradition of deifying the venerable dead first established by Tiberius on his step-father endures in Rome to this day with the attributing of "divinity" to mortals on a regular basis - the last being a priest from Malta called George Preca (who died in 1962) in 2007 though many have been beatified since then (half-way to divinity). The Latin Divi also translates as Saint


You don't have to literally "make someone a living deity" in order to have idolatrous attitudes toward them.  And people of all faiths know this intuitively - we're always talking about our idols, those being the things we are so dependent on that we feel like we can't do without them.  And many of the practices that the Romans had insisted their conquered people do in order to show fealty would have been considered idolatrous by Jews.  I am arguing that simply carrying a coin with the Caesar's image and the words "son of the Divine Augustus" would have been considered by many Jews of the day to be breaking Torah.  We don't need to get into an argument about the difference between gods and demi-gods and the difference between Augustus and Tiberius for my argument to be a valid one.
But you do because of the concessions Augustus made with Herod regarding Judea and judaism that were still in effect at that time. (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0002_0_01605.html). You also have to consider the pharisees, sadducees and other sects who also were permitted to function freely under Roman occupation. Remember also that the Render unto Caesar comment was directed to the pharisees and that Jesus was first tried by the Sanhedrin before being passed to Pilot, then to Herod, and then back to Pilot.

Ok, I think what you're doing is to equate one specific kind of Jew that was alive in Jesus' day with all Jews.  In other words, if I were to start acting like all Christians believed the same things Catholics believed, someone might have a problem with that.  Yes, the pharisees had arranged a relationship with the government of Rome and had relaxed many of the laws of Torah in order to do that, and they did all these things because they received power from this relationship.  That's one of the things Jesus was fighting against.
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2013 at 18:30
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Ok, I think what you're doing is to equate one specific kind of Jew that was alive in Jesus' day with all Jews.  In other words, if I were to start acting like all Christians believed the same things Catholics believed, someone might have a problem with that. 
I'm pretty sure I'm not, but if that's how you see it then I've nothing further to contribute.
 
ciao.
What?
Back to Top
rushfan4 View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 65937
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2013 at 11:29
Back to Top
Padraic View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31165
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2013 at 18:40
Today I was reminded that one of the greatest teachings of Christ was the power of forgiveness.
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2013 at 18:53
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Costco labels Bible as fiction.   http://business.time.com/2013/11/20/costco-apologizes-for-labeling-bibles-as-fiction/?hpt=hp_t3
Costco plays their employees a living wage. 

Guess what act should be more important for Christ?
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2013 at 21:04
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:



 The message many would desire us to take from this teaching of Jesus was that we should not concern ourselves with political things, but concentrate on spiritual matters so we can "go to heaven" (which, by the way, is not a Biblical concept).



Are you sure it's not a Biblical concept?

1.-
Quote Luke 9:

28 Now about eight days after this had been said, he took with him Peter, John and James   and went up the mountain to pray.

29 And it happened that, as he was praying, the aspect of his face was changed and his clothing became sparkling white.

30 And suddenly there were two men talking to him; they were Moses and Elijah

31 appearing in glory, and they were speaking of his passing which he was to accomplish in Jerusalem.

32 Peter and his companions were heavy with sleep, but they woke up and saw his glory and the two men standing with him.

33 As these were leaving him, Peter said to Jesus, 'Master, it is wonderful for us to be here; so let us make three shelters, one for you, one for  Moses and one for Elijah.' He did not know what he was saying.

If there's no heaven and death people are unconscious...How could Elijah and Moses be with Jesus?

2.-
Quote Luke 23:
39 One of the criminals hanging there abused him: 'Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us as well.'

40 But the other spoke up and rebuked him. 'Have you no fear of God at all?' he said. 'You/quote got the same sentence  as he did,

41 but in our case we deserved it: we are paying for what we did. But this man has done nothing wrong.'

42 Then he said, 'Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.'

43 He answered him, 'In truth I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.'

If I'm not wrong Christ himself promises the thief that the same day of hies death, they will be in paradise

3.-
Quote  Luke 16: 
22 Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels into Abraham's embrace. The rich man also died and was buried.

23 'In his torment in Hades he looked up and saw  Abraham a long way off with Lazarus in his embrace.

24 So he cried out, "Father Abraham, pity me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in agony in these flames."

25 Abraham said, "My son, remember that during your life you had your fill of good things, just as Lazarus his fill of bad. Now he is being comforted here while you are in agony.

26 But that is not all: between us and you a great gulf has been fixed, to prevent those who want to cross from our side to yours or from your side to ours."

27 'So he said, "Father, I beg you then to send Lazarus to my father's house,

28 since I have five brothers, to give them warning so that they do not come to this place of torment too."

29 Abraham said, "They have Moses and the prophets, let them listen to them."

30 The rich man replied, "Ah no, father Abraham, but if someone comes to them from the dead, they will  repent."

31 Then Abraham said to him, "If they will  not listen either to Moses or to the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone should rise from the dead."

So, the concept of Paradise is absolutely Biblical.

Iván




Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 13 2013 at 00:37
            
Back to Top
Ambient Hurricanes View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 25 2011
Location: internet
Status: Offline
Points: 2549
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2013 at 21:34
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Costco labels Bible as fiction.   http://business.time.com/2013/11/20/costco-apologizes-for-labeling-bibles-as-fiction/?hpt=hp_t3
Costco plays their employees a living wage. 

Guess what act should be more important for Christ?


Costco probably could have put the book under any of their genre headings and it would have described at least one literary genre that's in the Bible.  Except, perhaps, for Teen Vampire Romance...
I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32477
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2014 at 21:57
Please pray for Shanna.

She has breast and brain cancer.


Edited by Epignosis - January 05 2014 at 21:58
Back to Top
Ambient Hurricanes View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 25 2011
Location: internet
Status: Offline
Points: 2549
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2014 at 08:06
Praying
I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
Back to Top
Finnforest View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 03 2007
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 16913
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2014 at 17:56
Robert, I'm assuming this must be a friend or rellie of yours....sorry to hear this news.  I will pray my next rosary for her.  

Back to Top
Polymorphia View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2014 at 18:04
I'm sorry to hear that. Will be praying for her.
Back to Top
Padraic View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31165
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2014 at 18:38
Unfortunately, we're dealing with the same thing (brain tumor) in my family.

She has our prayers.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 8485868788 92>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.211 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.