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js (Easy Money) View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Jimi Hendrix added to proto-prog
    Posted: April 10 2009 at 12:57
M@x has requested that Jimi Hendrix be added to proto-prog.

Text for introducing Jimi Hendrix to proto-prog:

A couple months ago I found out that M@x had approved Jimi Hendrix for proto-prog, but he was still looking for someone to present him to the site. I’m not a Hendrix ‘fan-boy’, but based on my recollections of that time period, I had always thought that The Jimi Hendrix Experience (Mitch Mitchell is a huge influence on early progressive rock too) was a big part of that early scene from which progressive rock developed.

Vague recollections aren’t good enough for musicology, so I dug up some old Experience records and gave them a spin. I also revisited a lot of other records from that period, particularly The Nice, Procol Harum, The Moody Blues, Deep Purple and The Soft Machine. I also reread the bios I own that cover the early careers of Pink Floyd and Robert Wyatt in which Hendrix is constantly mentioned in gigs and tours with Pink Floyd, Soft Machine and The Nice as well as jam sessions, and various unreleased demos with Robert Wyatt and others. But it’s certainly not enough that Hendrix’s social life revolved around those who were breaking the boundaries of rock, what about his music.

Based on the music I listened to, and also based on the accounts of Jimi’s early music career from the viewpoint of Robert Wyatt and others, it became obvious to me that the Jimi Hendrix Experience was very much an integral part of that early proto-progressive rock scene based in England that included, but is not limited to: The Beatles, The Moody Blues, The Move, Procol Harum, Soft Machine, The Nice, Deep Purple and Pink Floyd. If you read interviews with any of those previously mentioned artists during that time period, they are more than enthusiastic about Hendrix’s huge impact on their music. In fact, except for maybe The Beatles, you will not find an artist mentioned more often as an influence on early progressive rockers and jazz fusionists including: Keith Emerson, Ian Anderson, Robert Fripp, Pete Townsend, Miles Davis, Jon McLaughlin, Carlos Santana, Ritchie Blackmore, Jon Lord and others.

In very early 1968 when Electric Ladyland and Axis Bold as Love had already been released, songs like Aint No Tellin, Burning of the Midnight Lamp and 1983 … Moon Turns the Tides placed The Jimi Hendrix Experience in the forefront along side Procol Harum, The Nice and others as far as stretching the boundaries of rock via complex and/or lengthy developed rock compositions.

Also, as far as a live presentation of a rock performance goes circa 67-68, the lengthy improvisations that Hendrix and Mitchell would indulge in (while ‘out-of-his-league’ bassist Noel Redding hung on for dear life) were way ahead of fellow early rock bands in terms of instrumental technique, creative ideas and sonic presentation, except for possibly Deep Purple, Soft Machine and a few others.
   


Here are some various issues that arise when discussing Hendrix’s proto-progressive rock credentials:


RnB background: Some people claim that Jimi’s background in RnB detracts from his ‘prog credentials’. What is interesting to notice is that almost every proto-prog band had a background in RnB or blues including The Beatles, The Nice, The Moody Blues, The Who, Pink Floyd, Deep Purple and others.

What about Cream: I don’t think Cream released any songs that were as progressive as 1983 … Moon Turns the Tides, Ain’t no Tellin, Burning of the Midnight Lamp and Third Stone from the Sun. I also think that Mitch and Jimi’s ability to really take flight in an improvisation surpassed what Clapton and Baker were capable of. It is too bad that Jack Bruce could not have been a member of The Experience.

Wasn’t Jimi a blues guitarist? : Lots of guitar players can play the blues. Did you know that in the entire 3 album discography of The Experience there is only one blues song repeated twice on Electric Ladyland. The first Experience album is pure British pop-rock with psychedelic and progressive tendencies. The next two albums start to show more of Jimi’s American roots, while also becoming more progressive. It is not until 1969 when Jimi joins with Buddy Miles that he becomes known as a blues guitarist.

What happened to Jimi and prog rock: In early 1968 the Experience stood shoulder to shoulder with the other creators of proto-prog when all of a sudden Jimi dropped his British affectations and went totally American blues-rock with Buddy Miles. While Jimi stepped back into his roots, progressive rock moved on to greater complexity with the arrival of King Crimson, Yes, ELP, Genesis and others. By the time we hit 69-70, Hendrix and progressive rock seem worlds apart.

Blue collar American voice: I think one of the main reasons that Hendrix doesn’t sound like proto-prog to some folks is his blue collar American vocal delivery. If you took those same Experience songs and topped them with a British art school voice The Experience would have been one of the first bands added to this PA data base.

Mitch Mitchell: The nice thing about bringing Hendrix onto the proto-prog section of PA is that Mitchell comes with him. It is hard for me to think of a more influential early progressive drummer except for maybe Elvin Jones, Buddy Rich or Robert Wyatt. When you listen to early Bill Bruford, Michael Giles, Clive Bunker and others you are hearing Mitchell’s jazz affected style.

It’s a generational thing: Judging from conversations I have had on this site, most people over 50 readily recognize Jimi as a proto-prog rocker, while younger folks seem a little more resistant to the idea. I really think to understand what a hugely revolutionary impact Hendrix had on the world of rock, you just had to be there. For a lot of us there was mundane rock before Hendrix, and then this explosion of expression and creativity after Hendrix. Certainly he is not the only one to spark this creativity, but the word-of-mouth buzz about his concerts amongst the youth of the day was surpassed by no one. Many of the older teenagers and 20-somethings that I knew would say things like you haven’t heard real rock until you have heard Hendrix.

5th member of The Soft Machine: Did you know that in the early days of The Soft Machine Jimi would often fill in on bass for gigs and recording sessions so that Kevin Ayers could play guitar. Jimi and Robert Wyatt jammed and recorded together often and Robert provides back-up vocals on a couple of Experience tunes including Think We Better Wait till Tomorrow.

EL&M: Did you know that Mitch Mitchell was Emerson and Lake’s first choice for their new trio. Things didn’t work out and Mitch said that Jimi might be interested, Keith was flattered but realized with he and Jimi in the same band the universe might explode.



PLEASE DO NOT ADD ANY BOOTLEGS TO THE HENDRIX DISCOGRAPHY


Edited by Easy Money - April 10 2009 at 13:19
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Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 13:05
Cool, I guess.
But obviously this means some long time members are going to crack the sh*ts for one reason or another (while I personally don't agree with the addition, nor am I going to bash this decision, because it obviously has a fair bit of merit on it's side) while new members are going to come, bash the collabs/admins for the decision while we calmly explain the artist was added not to a prog genre, but to proto prog all the while they keep yelling.

And also, I had no idea Jimi played bass for Sofh Machine on gigs, that is really awesome.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 13:07
Excellent!  I always felt that Hendrix should be here (and Cream too, since Cream is mentioned in the post).
"Mistakes can be corrected by those who pay attention to facts, but dogmatism will not be corrected by those who are wedded to a vision" (Thomas Sowell).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 13:09

I absollutely disagree, his compositions are not Prog at all.

But now he's added, nothing can be done so i will say nothing more about him as i always do.

Iván
 
Please, don't even dream in Cream
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 13:14
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

I absollutely disagree, his compositions are not Prog at all.

But now he's added, nothing can be done so i will say nothing more about him as i always do.

Iván
 
Please, don't even dream in Cream


Amusing how literally 2 posts after my post about saying how older members would be worried about this and how clearly he wasn't even added to a prog genre you state "I absollutely disagree, his compositions are not Prog at all."
Of course.
Hence why he wasn't even added to a prog genre. That's why we have proto prog and prog related buddy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 13:14
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

I absollutely disagree, his compositions are not Prog at all.


But now he's added, nothing can be done so i will say nothing more about him as i always do.


Iván

 

Please, don't even dream in Cream


Thank you for your professionalism Ivan, I never officially proposed Hendrix for the site (but I do support it) and I don't plan on proposing Cream either.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 13:16
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

... [snip]
Please, don't even dream in Cream


Creamy dreams are the best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NSB-wKYL4w
"Mistakes can be corrected by those who pay attention to facts, but dogmatism will not be corrected by those who are wedded to a vision" (Thomas Sowell).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 13:19
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

Please, don't even dream in Cream


Hehe - "Cream, get on top", as The artist formerly and perhaps currently known or unknown as Prince used to sing ;-)
The Progressive Rock record labels project: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85100
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 13:27
Originally posted by Petrovsk Mizinski



Amusing how literally 2 posts after my post about saying how older members would be worried about this and how clearly he wasn't even added to a prog genre you state "I absollutely disagree, his compositions are not Prog at all."
Of course.
Hence why he wasn't even added to a prog genre. That's why we have proto prog and prog related buddy.
 
The last post about this issue:
 
  1. I believe Proto Prog is underrated in this site, Proto Prog is already Prog, has most of the elements required and people place it in the same level as prog Related, honestly I would feel much more comfortable or better said less uncomfortable with Jimmy in Prog Related
  2. The phrase: "Hence why he wasn't even added to a prog genre. That's why we have proto prog and prog related buddy" is what is called a "Reductio ad absurdum" (Reduction to absurdity), because this is a Prog site, saying, "we add non prog artists to Prog Related or proto Prog and it's no problem because those are not prog genres, open the doors for anything to be added, people could say, lets add Michael Jackson to Prog Related, he's not Prog and Prog Related is not a prog genre.  I believe an artist is added for his composition to a prog sub-genre if he's a Prog artist and to a Non Prog sub-genre if he's related to Prog in an important degree.
  3. I don't believe Jimmy Hendrix's music has ANY connection with Prog, hence, he should not be in prog Archives.

But he's been added and by order of the boss, so no more will be said by me about him.

But please let's stop this phrase "It's no problem if he's not prog because Prog Related is not prog either", because to be in Prog Archives, we need a significative connection with Progressive Rock.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 10 2009 at 13:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 13:30
Anyway, one of my favourite Jimi Hendrix songs to mark the occasion:




"Mistakes can be corrected by those who pay attention to facts, but dogmatism will not be corrected by those who are wedded to a vision" (Thomas Sowell).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 13:45
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

Originally posted by Petrovsk Mizinski



Amusing how literally 2 posts after my post about saying how older members would be worried about this and how clearly he wasn't even added to a prog genre you state "I absollutely disagree, his compositions are not Prog at all."
Of course.
Hence why he wasn't even added to a prog genre. That's why we have proto prog and prog related buddy.
 
The last post about this issue:
 
  1. I believe Proto Prog is underrated in this site, Proto Prog is already Prog, has most of the elements required and people place it in the same level as prog Related, honestly I would feel much more comfortable or better said less uncomfortable with Jimmy in Prog Related
  2. The phrase: "Hence why he wasn't even added to a prog genre. That's why we have proto prog and prog related buddy" is what is called a "Reductio ad absurdum" (Reduction to absurdity), because this is a Prog site, saying, "we add non prog artists to Prog Related or proto Prog and it's no problem because those are not prog genres, open the doors for anything to be added, people could say, lets add Michael Jackson to Prog Related, he's not Prog and Prog Related is not a prog genre.  I believe an artist is added for his composition to a prog sub-genre if he's a Prog artist and to a Non Prog sub-genre if he's related to Prog in an important degree.
  3. I don't believe Jimmy Hendrix's music has ANY connection with Prog, hence, he should not be in prog Archives.

But he's been added and by order of the boss, so no more will be said by me about him.

But please let's stop this phrase "It's no problem if he's not prog because Prog Related is not prog either", because to be in Prog Archives, we need a significative connection with Progressive Rock.
 
Iván


Okay, fair enough, you don't agree with his addition, to some extent I can sympathize but like you I understand it's not my call or yours either as you said.
But when you say "We need significant connection with Progressive Rock", to what extent is "significant"?
Is "significant" concrete in this context or subject to opinion?
I don't believe either Iron Maiden or Jimi Hendrix have "Significant" connections to Progressive rock and a lot of other people seem to think so too.
This tells me, in order to be placed in the prog related or proto prog genres, an artist does not need a significant connection to prog rock, but a connection to a certain extent which is not necessarily "significant" to be eligble for addition. That seems fair, no?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 14:00
Significant could mean that HIS MUSIC, NOT PERFORMANCE, influenced DIRECTLY AND BEYOND DOUBTS Prog.
 
Just check that almost any late 60's or early 70's artist has at least a remote connection with some obscure Prog band, this doesn't mean we will add all of them.
 
Iván
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 14:35
Jimi Hendrix's inclusion in Proto prog is long overdue in my opinion Clap, as much of his music and ideas influenced so many Prog artists in the 60's and beyond. I would be happy to be of assistance to whoever does the bio and discography Big smile
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 14:37
awesome... great job John!!!!!!!   agree or not...   a great addition for the site.  As per the strength of the site...  the reviews can say better than anything what you think of Hendrix and his place here at the site
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 14:47
M@x has requested Hendrix's addition, and he is the owner of the site - without him and his work, we wouldn't be here. He has the right to make his wishes known, and we should appreciate the fact that he doesn't add artists himself, but asks first. Therefore, if we can't live with the fact that he might every now and then ask for a  band or artist that we don't consider prog to be added, I'm afraid there is nothing else to be done but leave. No use in tearing each other apart, or trying to prove a point after the fact.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 14:53
ehhh...  you know...  you enjoy what you enjoy... and ignore what you don't.  Crusaders are the type that only consider what they think... and disregard what others think.   Thankfully this site is not run that way.

As I posted in earlier discussion.. I wouldn't have voted Yes for him... but as I also posted.. the addition makes sense...and thus is a good addition if the site wanted him added.   Make no less sense than other additions.. so why are people upset...  I could understand being upset after the first.. the second.. maybe the third addition you didn't agree with.  At some point one just needs to understand this site is a collaborative site and there will be some additions you agree with.. and some you don't.   The point to remember is... the one's you may not... other's do agree with.   What makes any one's opinioin better than another.

my two cents on that.... 

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 15:13
Originally posted by Raff

M@x has requested Hendrix's addition, and he is the owner of the site - without him and his work, we wouldn't be here. He has the right to make his wishes known, and we should appreciate the fact that he doesn't add artists himself, but asks first. Therefore, if we can't live with the fact that he might every now and then ask for a  band or artist that we don't consider prog to be added, I'm afraid there is nothing else to be done but leave. No use in tearing each other apart, or trying to prove a point after the fact.


So if someone doesn't like M@X's decisions, they just shouldn't question it? Of course, obviously the Hendrix addition cannot be changed by any of our opinions, but if someone feels they disagree, they should feel they are in the clear to be able to say so.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 15:21
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

I absollutely disagree, his compositions are not Prog at all.


But now he's added, nothing can be done so i will say nothing more about him as i always do.


Iván

 

Please, don't even dream in Cream

You really can't be serious, Ivan. You don't think tracks like The Wind Cries Mary or 1983 are prog?

Ever heard of Hawkwind? I hear Jimi all over their music. I got sneaky feeling there's some sort of prejudice going on in you that anybody who has a rep of playing blues is automatically discounted.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 15:27
As Ib said before, no more talk about Jimmi from Me,
 
Raff has said it well, M@x has requested his addiotion and we can't say no, and as usual, once a band is added, i say nothing about them.
 
As a fact, even when i'm not convinced, Jimmi won't affect the credibilityof the site or upset me (If we were talking about the bee Gees, well, that would be different Wink), because many people consider him Proto, maybe i'm wrong, maybe not.
 
Cheers
 
Iván
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2009 at 15:35
Originally posted by Petrovsk Mizinski

[

So if someone doesn't like M@X's decisions, they just shouldn't question it? Of course, obviously the Hendrix addition cannot be changed by any of our opinions, but if someone feels they disagree, they should feel they are in the clear to be able to say so.
 
Thasnks man, I know M@X and I'm sure he appreciates all the honest opinions even if he doesn't agree with them.
 
If something has made this site Nº 1 is the variety of opinions, if we agreed with everything, the site would be boring and already closed.
 
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