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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Points: 5090 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2013 at 08:57
I'm fairly sure that more than one ally also committed crimes during WWII, I have no interest in digging on that, and the media doesn't seem to be either, let's keep it like that.
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Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

I'm fairly sure that more than one ally also committed crimes during WWII, I have no interest in digging on that, and the media doesn't seem to be either, let's keep it like that.
I am wholly anti-war, so I take no sides - a crime is a crime is a crime no matter what badge you hide behind and there is no excuse for killing civilians and no statute of limitations on murder.
What?
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Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

I'm fairly sure that more than one ally also committed crimes during WWII, I have no interest in digging on that, and the media doesn't seem to be either, let's keep it like that.
I am wholly anti-war, so I take no sides - a crime is a crime is a crime no matter what badge you hide behind and there is no excuse for killing civilians and no statute of limitations on murder.
Yeah, I get that, but you know, nazis lost and allies won, there seems to be some perverse fun in 'hey, we found a hiding old nazi who should be hung by his balls' and a complete indifference towards eventually identifying any war-criminal allies. C'mon, we're in 2013, let's just turn the page, this does not mean forgetting.
In no way I am justifying anything, but the atrocities that can happen in a war environment are simply beyond my imagination. Even in my banal work I have said and done things which I felt unethical because of pressure from my higher management, I can't imagine what a nazi middle officer could have felt when confronted with the tasks his superiors demanded from him (again, this is no justifying!). Let's just turn the page please (without forgetting but without persecuting anymore).
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Bomber Command killed a lot of civilians during the second war so let's go on a witch hunt and round all up the veterans. One of my uncles told me about this mosquito pilot who strafed a passenger train because he wanted to kill as many Germans in one shot as he could. He wasn't even disciplined. Is that murder? Maybe some of those civillians worked in factories that produced war material. War is a nasty business.
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Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Why?


The purpose of the justice system is the protection of society, correct?  I see no way in which this man's trial would serve that purpose.
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Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Why?


The purpose of the justice system is the protection of society, correct?  I see no way in which this man's trial would serve that purpose.


 
 
In part, yes, but not completely.  There is also a punitive aspect, as there should be. 
 
 

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Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Why?


The purpose of the justice system is the protection of society, correct?  I see no way in which this man's trial would serve that purpose.


By that logic, why try and incarcerate the raging husband who killed his unfaithful wife?  He's no threat to society.
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Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

Bomber Command killed a lot of civilians during the second war so let's go on a witch hunt and round all up the veterans. One of my uncles told me about this mosquito pilot who strafed a passenger train because he wanted to kill as many Germans in one shot as he could. He wasn't even disciplined. Is that murder? Maybe some of those civillians worked in factories that produced war material. War is a nasty business.
Murder is murder is murder, wearing a uniform does not make it right if it violates the numerous treaties and conventions enforce before the events of WWII such as the Hague and Geneva conventions. While I consider all war to be a crime against humanity, I do recognise that criminal proceedings are only possible if a criminal act has been committed and can only be prosecuted if there is sufficient evidence to secure a conviction, a witch hunt is only viable if both those conditions are met, but in pprinciple, yes, strafing a civilian passenger train that has zero military significance is an act of murder, not of war.
 
Glorify war all you want Ian, it does not make it any more palatable.
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Dean View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Why?


The purpose of the justice system is the protection of society, correct?  I see no way in which this man's trial would serve that purpose.


So, to commit the perfect crime: be good at hide and seek, live a normal life in a new country, raise a normal family, grow to be exceeedingly old, look harmless when caught and don't be a threat to society.
 
 
Brilliant.
 
 


Edited by Dean - June 17 2013 at 12:56
What?
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I dunno. What about Syria. Is this goofball going do go down. On the CBC tonight  they were yakking about a proxy war between the US & Russia. Canada sitting on the fence. I say let them duke it out by themselves. It seems to me that it's Putin pouring gasoline on the fire. 
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Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Why?


The purpose of the justice system is the protection of society, correct?  I see no way in which this man's trial would serve that purpose.


So, to commit the perfect crime: be good at hide and seek, live a normal life in a new country, raise a normal family, grow to be exceeedingly old, look harmless when caught and don't be a threat to society.
 
 
Brilliant.
 
 

Killing innocent civilians especially children is unforgivable regardless of time or circumstances. Soldiers are forced to obey orders but not to commit murder. I have interviewed WW2 veterans who refused to do so and were punished for disobedience but not put against a wall and shot! For all its gruesome brutality, the Napoleonic Wars pitted soldier vs soldier, mano a mano, with limited or nonexistent civilian “collateral damage”. But total war (WW1) brought about gassing and the execution of civilian populations both on the Western and Eastern fronts.

As a military historian (and most of us do agree on this),  WW2 was a civilized response against an evil human scourge that needed absolute slaying, not only for what Hitler did to the Jews but what he did to the Germans themselves, spooning this übermensch bullsh*t led by men who were neither blond or blue-eyed! What a crock ! 

As for the Ukrainian-Polish-Russian- German lovefest, history shows that hatred is way easier to perpetuate than peaceful coexistence. Just ask a Yugoslav ! When human garbage like Dinko Sakic is revered today by some as a Croatian hero or Mladic as a Serbian patriot , you have to wonder why we are called humans at all.

Killing children for sheer pleasure = eternal hunting down and justice. 

ASSAD WILL MEET HIS FATE in due course...like Hussein, Ghaddafi, Mubarak and good old Osama !  
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Should we stop inquiring about the new but important evidence that comes seeping in every few years about the JFK assassination, whether that evidence indicates there was or was not a conspiracy?   Should the Justice Department  -  that is now obligated to act on the evidence compiled by the JFK Records Act in the 90s  -  conduct a new investigation into reports of Naval and Secret Service improprieties, even if it turns out the 'improprieties' were innocent?

I mean, is truth and some kind of justice important, or is it "moving on" as some have said, "not letting the past get in the way of the present or the future" ?    At least in this case we know what happened, we know what he did, and are in fact fortunate that this ex-Nazi is still around to prosecute.  

Oh and BTW, this man was found in my country, in Minnesota, that's deeply disturbing.   This ain't some banana republic where you can't swing a dead raccoon without hitting a geriatric fascist and the Israeli's who are after them.  

Minnesota.   Jesus.
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http://listverse.com/2012/08/24/15-nazis-that-should-have-been-executed/

This shows you the kind of chivalrous "men" we are dealing with! They deserved to live a prosperous post-war life? Really? Show forgiveness, really?
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Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Why?


The purpose of the justice system is the protection of society, correct?  I see no way in which this man's trial would serve that purpose.


 
 
In part, yes, but not completely.  There is also a punitive aspect, as there should be. 
 
 


To answer Pat and Dean's replies as well: I don't agree that those people pose no threat to society.  The man who kills will kill again, as Hurcule Poirot was fond of saying.

Jim: I agree with you that there should be a punitive aspect, but I also think that at some point we have to consider if punishment is really necessary.  It has been 60 years and it's about time to let it go and have mercy on the poor guy.  I have no way to know if he's repented of his crimes, but wouldn't you think 60 years of living in a society that has demonized (for good reason) the holocaust above almost any event in history is enough punishment?  Every school class, every history book, every tribute to the victims, has rightfully cast him and the other Nazis as terrible human beings who committed one of the worst atrocities in history.  For years, he's probably tried unsuccessfully to forget about his past.  I think that's enough punishment for one man's lifetime.
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Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

  It has been 60 years and it's about time to let it go and have mercy on the poor guy.  I have no way to know if he's repented of his crimes, but wouldn't you think 60 years of living in a society that has demonized (for good reason) the holocaust above almost any event in history is enough punishment?  Every school class, every history book, every tribute to the victims, has rightfully cast him and the other Nazis as terrible human beings who committed one of the worst atrocities in history.  For years, he's probably tried unsuccessfully to forget about his past.  I think that's enough punishment for one man's lifetime.

This is an unusually sad view to take and I hope someday you see that.   But i forgive you.
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Points: 6673 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2013 at 20:21
I don't agree with you Ambient Hurricanes, these criminals were given authority and weapons to kill, not for food or money but for sheer pleasure. Sakic believed to his death that he was a hero for killing thousands of innocents in Jasenovac. He never repented or apologized. Feeling sorry for their alleged penitence? Dude, we are talking massive serial killing! 

Edited by tszirmay - June 17 2013 at 20:22
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I wonder what will happen sooner - the ole Pappy gets tossed into slammer, or they find a way of shaving off this person's facial hair:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2013/images/06/04/t1larg-nidal-hassan.jpg
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Jacob, I don't think that is a "poor guy" - he's been hiding from justice for years. Reminds me of that Nazi f$&k from The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, portrayed by Stellan Skarsgaard. He probably still keeps those interesting tools and substances somewhere in his cellar.
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that's quite a rogues gallery. Noticed that it Eduard Roschmann gets mentioned in the intro. Roschmann was a character in one of Frederick Forsyth's early thriller novels The Odessa File which was also made into a movie.
I commented on both on my crappy website here :


and here :


Like The Feathermen by Sir Ranaulph Feinnes the Odessa was a product of Forsyth's imagination but it was a cool story that reflected the cowardice of these monsters. 
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Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

that's quite a rogues gallery. Noticed that it Eduard Roschmann gets mentioned in the intro. Roschmann was a character in one of Frederick Forsyth's early thriller novels The Odessa File which was also made into a movie.
I commented on both on my crappy website here :


and here :


Like The Feathermen by Sir Ranaulph Feinnes the Odessa was a product of Forsyth's imagination but it was a cool story that reflected the cowardice of these monsters. 






Eduard Roschmann was real person though, known sadly, as the butcher of Riga . He "became" Federico Wegener and joined Argentina' s fascist community. Died in 1977 of old age. 
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