News of the day

Speaking of Snowden and NSA spying and all that jazz - it seems quite stylish these days to blame Obama for all that.  But I don't think this is right, for three reasons:
1) He didn't put into place the policies that led us to this point - that was another president....one known by the letter "W".
2) When this thing blew up after the Snowden leak, one of the things Obama said was: "I welcome this debate" - he WANTS to change this.  And:
3) I don't think the president is our problem.  I think these guys are:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/28/nsa-bills_n_3516928.html

Argonaught wrote:   dtguitarfan wrote: He didn't put into place the policies that led us to this point - that was another president....one known by the letter "W". Oh, I see .. 'cause before W there wasn't such thing as "government snooping" .. or torture .. or invasion of other countries w/o casus belli or Congressional approval ..  Bush invented these.

Things definitely got worse with W.

dtguitarfan wrote: ^ The point I'm making is this: people who don't like Obama love to say to the people that voted for him that he's just Bush Jr.   But the problem with this view is that Obama didn't write most of the policies the "Bush Jr." people take issue with.   He just hasn't had an opportunity to overturn them.   He got a lot done in his first two years, and then the toddler- like temper-tantrum throwing GOP took the house and some Senate seats back, and we haven't been able to get anything done in our government since.

dtguitarfan wrote: Speaking of Snowden and NSA spying and all that jazz - it seems quite stylish these days to blame Obama for all that.  But I don't think this is right, for three reasons: 1) He didn't put into place the policies that led us to this point - that was another president....one known by the letter "W". 2) When this thing blew up after the Snowden leak, one of the things Obama said was: "I welcome this debate" - he WANTS to change this.  And: 3) I don't think the president is our problem.  I think these guys are: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/28/nsa-bills_n_3516928.html

Obama is just part of the problem.  The entire system is corrupt, and most of our legislators, republican and democrat, have both feet firmly planted in the Orwellian surveillance camp.  You can't let Bush or Obama or anyone who was responsible for this off the hook.  While I agree that it is unfair to lay all the blame on the president, you cannot deny that the problem has gotten worse under his administration, not better.  Snowden himself said that he had hope for positive change when Obama took office but that the surveillance was amped up instead. 

Who exactly are you referring to in the article?  Congress in general?  The people proposing bills to limit the NSA's powers?

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: Who exactly are you referring to in the article?  Congress in general?

YES.  The majority half, to be more precise. 

Limit your disbelief for a second and hear me out.  Presidents and Senators have to appeal to a broader range of people in order to be elected.  They can't go way off the deep end and become an extreme left or right winger, or they simply will not be able to get the majority of the vote.  Yes, to a certain degree, if you're running for senate in a Red state you can get away with being more conservative, but you still can't go too far or you won't get it.  CONGRESS, however, is elected by district.  And the districts are drawn by the government of their state.  And if you look into it with an open mind, you'll see that what happened after Obama was elected is that the Republican party gerrymandered the f**k out of states like Ohio, where even though Democrats made up the majority of the vote of the state overall, they ended up with 11 Republicans and 2 Democrats elected to the House.  So, because of this state, House Republicans don't worry about pushing things too far.  In fact, they know that if they want to win their primaries, they've got to appeal to the "base" - the most passionate people of the party (read: the craziest).  So yes, I blame the House Republicans for most of our problems.  And you if you really pay attention to politics (I read the politics pages EVERY DAMN DAY), you'll see that everything you WANT to happen in our government is being blocked...by the House.

^I agree that most of the republicans in congress are dishonest charlatans who are hungry for power and couldn't care less about the American people.  But I think the same of the democrats.  We were talking about Snowden, so just consider the reaction of both house and senate to the leaks: both republicans and democrats are unwilling to admit that the government is wrong.  Of course, there are a few brave legislators on both sides who are willing to take a stand against the blatant corruption and disregard for freedom present in our security system.  But it's both sides who are trying to justify this, both sides that are oppressing the American people. 

And please give me some examples of good legislation that is being blocked by the House. 

The T wrote: ^I think the problem Geoff is that you read politics EVERY DAMN DAY as you say.

No, I think the problem is that no matter how much research I do, idiots keep trying to tell me I'm mistaken.  You can't ever explain to anyone why they're wrong these days, no matter how much fact you have to back you up.  Which is why I often take to just giving an abbreviated version of the argument these days and say things like "you're just going to say that everything I say is a lie anyways."

dtguitarfan wrote: The T wrote: ^I think the problem Geoff is that you read politics EVERY DAMN DAY as you say. No, I think the problem is that no matter how much research I do, idiots keep trying to tell me I'm mistaken.  You can't ever explain to anyone why they're wrong these days, no matter how much fact you have to back you up.  Which is why I often take to just giving an abbreviated version of the argument these days and say things like "you're just going to say that everything I say is a lie anyways."

Did you just call people here "idiots"? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you probably didn't. Have you happened to think that if you have problems having people argue with you is because of the ultra-political way you argue?

Can you just admit that both parties are about 99% identical in terms of policies?

King of Loss wrote: Can you just admit that both parties are about 99% identical in terms of policies?

No, because they're not.

Now, there are some areas where they are frustratingly similar.  But often when people say things like, say, both Democrats and Republicans support a system that has made the USA the highest in prison population, well I say that you have to realize there's no simple answer to this problem.  So you have to look at it as a bunch of smaller pieces of the puzzle that might eventually lead to the solution - one small piece being the legalization of marijuana.  So then you look at the two parties and say - which one is supporting the legalization of marijuana, and which is saying it should remain an offense that results in imprisonment?  Hmm?