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refugee
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: November 20 2006 Location: Greece Status: Offline Points: 7026 |
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It’s been objected that the BUK is too complicated for the separatists to operate, but many of them have been fighting in places like Chechnya, Yugoslavia, Iraq and Syria. The BUK isn’t exactly a brand new weapon system, so my guess is that quite a few of them have the experience and expertise required.
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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing (Peter Hammill) |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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^not by me, I simply stated the size of the weaponry required to kill a small airliner from 6.25 miles away. That kind of equipment is not normally available to your everyday run of the mill rebel. If it is the case that the rebels obtained this piece of Russian military hardware when they over-ran a Ukrainian base then I'm sure finding someone who could use it wouldn't be too difficult - though it appears that finding someone who can use it AND can tell a Ukrainian military jet from a civilian airliner is not so easy.
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What?
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akamaisondufromage
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: May 16 2009 Location: Blighty Status: Offline Points: 6797 |
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And then they might just be able to find someone who would be willing to train them in how to use it. Whoever might want to do that? Beats me?
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Help me I'm falling!
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refugee
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: November 20 2006 Location: Greece Status: Offline Points: 7026 |
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^No, not by you, but by retired Brig. Gen. Kevin Ryan:
"It takes a lot of training and a lot of coordination to fire one of these and hit something," he said. (…) Ryan concludes then that if the plane really was shot down, a professional military force -- either on purpose or by accident -- was responsible. "This is not the kind of weapon a couple of guys are going to pull out of a garage and fire," he said. Link: http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-crash-missile/ |
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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing (Peter Hammill) |
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AtomicCrimsonRush
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 02 2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 14256 |
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Australians everywhere are also feeling the grief of the Malaysian Airlines disaster. On every station when it first happened and headlines as follows...
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/telltale-signs-of-a-supersonic-hit-to-mh17/story-fni0fit3-1226997961378 http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/how-to-explain-mh17-to-children/story-fni0fiyv-1226998049272 |
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 21 2005 Location: Boston, MA Status: Offline Points: 16329 |
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We'll never know the true answer of such an incident.... But eh... these events have happened before in the past during the Cold War... We'll never know the true answer.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
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"It's not what's true that counts, it's what's percieved to be true" Henry Kissenger.
(paraphrased) |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 21 2005 Location: Boston, MA Status: Offline Points: 16329 |
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Yeah...... I think it's quite sad to see what some of these AIDS researchers had to offer for our curiously stupid human species...
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
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^^^^ Sorry, I don't get it.
I guess you're referring to the AID's researchers who were on the plane, but I don't understand your point. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 21 2005 Location: Boston, MA Status: Offline Points: 16329 |
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*CONSPIRACY THEORY* time! But no, really, I agree with your point here... Just think about what they told us before the Iraq War. |
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
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Well, I'm not convinced there's a conspiracy but I would agree the truth is probably hard to get to in these situations. Too many conflicting perspectives.
Edited by Blacksword - July 22 2014 at 13:52 |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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The only conspiracy (if there is one) is in any subsequent cover-up - then that's generally where all the real conspiracies are (almost by definition really)
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What?
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5093 |
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I tend to be very skeptical with these things, we know so little. We never hear in the media that this or that event is consequence of the actions by the intelligence services of this or that country (except for perhaps the arresting of some Colombian or Mexican drugs baron or terrorist now and then, or the release of some hostages etc). And yet, intelligence services do exist, and some of them are very strong, and they certainly do things, some of which will eventually have visible consequences. Hence, it follows that of the many events we witness, some of them are related to actions by secret services. 20 in 100 or 1 in 10,000 we do not know, but some are. Speculating about which of them are or are not is quite useless, but we must simply be aware that some of them must be.
We never knew (and we will never know) who were really the mysterious snipers shooting at the demonstrants in Kiev Maidan square. This case of the MH17 has many suspicious elements and things which apparently do not make any sense, I'm not going for the conspiracy theory right away but things do not seem to add up nicely. Ar any rate this seem to be possibly just a sad and unfortunate mistake. What is happening in Gaza on the other hand is with malice aforethought, deliberately on civilians, everybody knows the responsibles and yet nothing will happen, nobody is ever gonna take them to Den Haag. Sure enough the palestinians are not lacking of guilt, but the unbalance of powers and actions is undeniable, the ones fire home-made rockets and the others react with air raids and tanks, the ones kill 3 youngsters and the others kill 200 civilians including children. Excuse my ignorance but can someone more educated than me tell me how come Israel is so powerful? How come they never get sanctions by the international community? Is Israel really such an extremely wealthy state?
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
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I try and watch a variety of news channels and to be honest it leaves you utterly clueless whats going on. If you only watched Russia today you could be left with no doubt whatsoever that Ukrainian forces shot that plane down. Watch the BBC and the polar opposite is the case.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5093 |
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It could not be Russia, their intelligence and army are competent enough not to make this kind of mistake. The pro-russian rebels surely have dicks among them but one would think that they would not leave the handling of such a weapon to one of them. Passenger planes were flying daily over their skies at high altitudes, those were clearly not the target of the rebels. Why the hell would they aim at something flying at that altitude? that is not done by a teenager holding a bazooka, that required the work of trained people, and any russian trainer would have told them that planes flying at such an altitude are likely to be passenger planes.
It is also a bit suspicious that so quickly after the event Kiev happened to have recordings of supposed conversations between rebels admitting a mistake and images of a BUK missile truck missing some of its missiles driving through some woods, nobody knows where. I don't think in the east of Ukraine they have street security cameras everywhere as there are in much of Europe, let alone among the woods. Again I will not make any judgement but there are a few things which seem weird.
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 23 2005 Location: The Tardis Status: Offline Points: 8543 |
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I know if I wanted to really try to make Russia look bad (and I had the capability of doing so), I'd shoot down a civilian jet and try to frame Russia. I also think they know that the west is all ready to jump on the anti-Putin bandwagon and would be quick to find a reason to pin the blame on Putin, even if only by association. I think we need to take a step back and really give the evidence time to become clear before we start pointing fingers at anyone.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 21 2005 Location: Boston, MA Status: Offline Points: 16329 |
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Pretty much what I think. It might take a while before we really find out and there's a chance that we won't find out the truth at all!
Edited by King of Loss - July 22 2014 at 19:16 |
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 21 2005 Location: Boston, MA Status: Offline Points: 16329 |
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Just looking around the world news and talking to people from these new conflict zones, I really hope that we don't see World War 3 soon... I'm still trying to start graduate school soon.....
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Sagichim
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 29 2006 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 6632 |
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Peace!!
Things were pretty bad lately... |
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refugee
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: November 20 2006 Location: Greece Status: Offline Points: 7026 |
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We know. |
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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing (Peter Hammill) |
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