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Points: 17493 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2014 at 10:44
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

I know this is one-day-old news, but it's not too late.

Is there really enough gun control in the US? ... I wonder how other countries would handle such an issue.
This is quite unthinkable in Europe, fortunately. Honestly I have no pity for the parents who bring their 9-year old girl to a gun training range. At any rate it's even worse in Africa and some parts of Asia where they do not only teach children to shoot guns but to actually kill people with them...
Answerto the questio about the US: here, there's a large percentage of people who think that if one can't get a gun, no matter who one is and what one has done, one is basically a slave. Yes, they equate gun ownership with freedom. 
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http://news.yahoo.com/eu-gives-russia-sanctions-ultimatum-233250577.html

It appears that Putin doesn't really seem to give a damn about sanctions at all. He is ignoring UN and NATO. What is he trying to accomplish?
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Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

http://news.yahoo.com/eu-gives-russia-sanctions-ultimatum-233250577.html

It appears that Putin doesn't really seem to give a damn about sanctions at all. He is ignoring UN and NATO. What is he trying to accomplish?


Could be he is a genuine megalomaniac,   no longer able to discern reality, and he only operates through the filter of his own perceived omnipotence.
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Points: 10970 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2014 at 00:35

According to this page, the invasion/incursion (however the White House administration wants to call it, not sure what it changes) is a response to Victor Yanukovich's plea to restore some kind of order in Ukraine, part of which is the law on minority languages.
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Background[edit]

Main article: 2014 Crimean crisis

Following months of protests as part of the Euromaidan movement, protesters ousted Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych on 22 February 2014. The protesters took control of government buildings in the capital city of Kiev, along with the city itself. Amidst waning support from all parts of Ukraine, President Yanukovych fled Kiev for Kharkiv,[77] the Ukrainian parliament voted to restore the 2004 Constitution of Ukraine[citation needed], and remove Yanukovych from power.[78] Despite this, President Yanukovych refused to resign, and politicians from eastern and southern regions of Ukraine, including Crimea, declared continuing loyalty to Yanukovych.[79]

On the next day, the Ukrainian parliament adopted a bill to repeal the law on minority languages, which protected the status of languages other than Ukrainian, such as the Russian language.[80]In so doing, the parliament alienated many in the vast Russian-speaking regions of Ukraine when it attempted to make Ukrainian the sole state language at all levels, seemingly in an expression ofUkrainian nationalism.[81] A few days later, on 1 March, acting President Oleksandr Turchynovvetoed the bill, effectively stopping its enactment.[82]

In the meantime, on the morning of 27 February, Berkut special police units from Crimea and other regions of Ukraine, which had been technically dissolved on 25 February, seized checkpoints on the Isthmus of Perekop and Chonhar peninsula.[83][6] According to Ukrainian MPHennadiy Moskal, former chief of the Crimean police, these Berkut had armored personnel carriers, grenade launchers, assault rifles, machine guns and other weapons.[7] Since then they have controlled all land traffic between Crimea and continental Ukraine.[7]

Russian political actions[edit]

Russian permanent representative to the United Nations Vitaly Churkin presented on 4 March a photocopy of a letter signed by Victor Yanukovich on 1 March 2014 asking that Russian president Vladimir Putin use Russian armed forces to "restore the rule of law, peace, order, stability and protection of the population of Ukraine".[84] Both houses of the Russian parliament voted on 1 March to give President Putin the right to use Russian troops in Crimea.[85][86]

Yanukovich and the Russian parliament actually think that a military intervention is the best solution to all of these problems. Is it?




Edited by Dayvenkirq - August 31 2014 at 00:38
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Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

http://news.yahoo.com/eu-gives-russia-sanctions-ultimatum-233250577.html

It appears that Putin doesn't really seem to give a damn about sanctions at all. He is ignoring UN and NATO. What is he trying to accomplish?


I would say he's putting on a show for the west. He likes to be seen not to blink in these situations.

I suspect what will happen, in a weeks time, is that he will do nothing to de-escalate the crisis. He'll be hit with more sanctions, which he will ignore and then a few weeks from now our media will further report that Russian troops are in Ukraine and also starting to take other regions in the country. NATO will deploy its rapid deployment force of 10,000 troops to Poland. Russia will amass further troop batteries at the Ukraine border. Ukraine will then join NATO. The west with then accuse the Russians of moving tactical nuclear weapons up the border and show us satelite pictures of military vehecles (which could be carrying baked beans for all we know) and of course we will believe it without question.

What happens after that will depend on Putin coming to his senses. The problem is if we push him into a situation where he feels like he doesn't have anything to lose, that's when the problems could really start for all of us.

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Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


Yanukovich and the Russian parliament actually think that a military intervention is the best solution to all of these problems. Is it?

Obviously I can not defend military 'solutions' anywhere, but you can not ignore the way things have unfolded in Ukraine. Yanukovich was a democratically elected president and he was removed violently by a coup d'etat, most likely instigated and supported by the US because he was about to sign an agreement with Russia. The current government is not a democratically elected government, it has been put there by the US and Europe and it should not have legitimacy to take any important decisions (let alone military intervention against its own population) until new elections are done, and they do not seem to have a hurry in holding them. The coup worked because the capital and government happen to be in Kiev, if Ukraine's capital was Donetsk or Sevastopol things would probably have turned out differently.

Democracy within a group only works when there is enough cohesion between the members of the group and honest respect for the minorities, and in principle all or most of them belong to the group voluntarily. Imagine that for whatever reason the US and China belonged to the same nation or democratic group. The Chinese are 1300 million and the Americans are 300 million, so democratically everything would be decided by the Chinese part of the population and America would have to follow the Chinese way of doing. I wonder if many Americans would agree with such a democracy.

Having said that, I do not have a solution, this is about the US+Europe and Russia fighting for a strategically important piece of land. Both will have to give and take if a war has to be avoided, perhaps NATO should commit that no bases or equipment will be deployed east of Poland, Russia commit to maintain the supply of gas and other things along those lines. I'm sure that behind the curtains they are discussing, what we see in the media is just the facade. If Russia supports militarily it means that the underground negotiations are not meeting enough of their interests so they are adding pressure. 
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Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

</span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Yanukovich and the Russian parliament actually think that a military intervention is the best solution to all of these problems. Is it?
<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
</span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">Obviously I can not defend military 'solutions' anywhere, but you can not ignore the way things have unfolded in Ukraine. Yanukovich was a democratically elected president and he was removed violently by a coup d'etat, most likely instigated and supported by the US because he was about to sign an agreement with Russia. The current government is not a democratically elected government, it has been put there by the US and Europe and it should not have legitimacy to take any important decisions (let alone military intervention against its own population) until new elections are done, and they do not seem to have a hurry in holding them. The coup worked because the capital and government happen to be in Kiev, if Ukraine's capital was Donetsk or Sevastopol things would probably have turned out differently.<div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">Democracy within a group only works when there is enough cohesion between the members of the group and honest respect for the minorities, and in principle all or most of them belong to the group voluntarily. Imagine that for whatever reason the US and China belonged to the same nation or democratic group. The Chinese are 1300 million and the Americans are 300 million, so democratically everything would be decided by the Chinese part of the population and America would have to follow the Chinese way of doing. I wonder if many Americans would agree with such a democracy.<div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">Having said that, I do not have a solution, this is about the US+Europe and Russia fighting for a strategically important piece of land. Both will have to give and take if a war has to be avoided, perhaps NATO should commit that no bases or equipment will be deployed east of Poland, Russia commit to maintain the supply of gas and other things along those lines. I'm sure that behind the curtains they are discussing, what we see in the media is just the facade. If Russia supports militarily it means that the underground negotiations are not meeting enough of their interests so they are adding pressure. 




NATO could make a committment like what you suggest, but also Ukraine is preparing for NATO membership. They want it urgently, because they think Russia won't attack a NATO member state, which may well be the case. If they do join NATO then I suspect NATO will put bases in Ukraine.

Crucially for Russia, they want Crimea recognised as Russian territory. I can't see them rowing back on that, and I also can't see the west accepting that either because that will give the green light in principle for Russia to claim back other parts of East Europe that used to be part of the USSR and have large swathes of ethnic Russians who could be pursuaded to face towards Moscow; Moldova for instance, and their expansion westward would continue. It's a very messy situation.
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Precisely, it's eye-opening that in the last days the priority for Ukraine seem to be joining NATO... I would rather phrase it as it is NATO's priority to secure the Ukranian territory under its arms.

This is precisely the kind of decision that an interim, non-democratically-elected government should not be allowed to take. That government has been put there by the West so it's no surprise it's urge for 'wanting to join NATO' and the sudden willingness of NATO to allow an extraordinarily fast 'acceptance of the request'.

Sorry, interim governments can not take decisions of this kind, first establish a democratically elected government and then we will see.

It is no surprise that Russia was not going to let this alone as if nothing happened.
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I thought Poroshenko was elected?
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Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

I thought Poroshenko was elected?
Well, yes he was, but the whole environment was controversial. Crimea did not participate in the elections as they had already declared themselves independent. Reportedly there were also many difficulties for voting in the eastern regions of Ukraine. And one of Poroshenko's commitments in the campaign was to amend the ties with Russia (while being of course pro-EU) which probably gave him also the support by some people who were a bit in the middle.
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A new election would be even more problematic with such huge swaths of the eastern part of the country in full revolt.

Somehow a ceasefire needs to be put in place so talks can begin on how to deal with the situation.  Certainly one of my disagreements with the Western approach is not allowing eastern rebel groups to have a seat at the negotiating table.  If you shut them out, they will keep fighting.  I wonder if it is possible to have two states - a Western-aligned Kiev based one and a Russian-aligned Donetsk (maybe) based one, although I've read interviews that much of the Ukrainians want to preserve their nation* no matter where their preferences (Europe/Russia) lie.

* Crimea is probably lost for good.
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Woman 'beheaded' in garden, Edmonton, London UK

BBC article

Edited by Blacksword - September 04 2014 at 11:44
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^I suspect Henry, just getting back at Cynthia.
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Oh man this beheading thing is getting too far when it's done even in backyards. Please leave it to professionals: Mexican drug cartels or Muslim terrorists. 
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Execution drugs vs. beheading??
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Apparently they arrested a guy who was running amok with a machete. He was eventually taken down with a taser. One police officer hurt in the 'scuffle'
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Taken down with a taser? What kind of pansy is that? Here in the states we would have pumped 40-50 rounds in to him at the very least.
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Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Taken down with a taser? What kind of pansy is that? Here in the states we would have pumped 40-50 rounds in to him at the very least.


Indeed, and that would have been before the police even turned up!
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How do you get from a minor traffic rule violation to a seizure like that? What kind of hunches do the policemen use? Will they confiscate my $10 if I have it lying in a cellophane bag in my trunk?

There's tons of other "fun stuff" in this article ... or is this just Washington Post trying to mess with our heads?


Edited by Dayvenkirq - September 10 2014 at 01:44
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Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


How do you get from a minor traffic rule violation to a seizure like that? What kind of hunches do the policemen use? Will they confiscate my $10 if I have it lying in a cellophane bag in my trunk?
There's tons of other "fun stuff" in this article ... or is this just Washington Post trying to mess with our heads?





Yeah, I read about this on RT a few years back. Some retailers are allegedly being urged to also report people who make large purchases with cash instead of debit or credit card.

I'm not sure what the real reasons are for the policy.
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