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micky View Drop Down
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Points: 46827 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2015 at 22:33
ehh...  dude I consider myself pretty damn left of center.. but at some point..politics must end and real leadership must start.... and it becomes obvious that destroying your whole economic system can be because your people want it is... a frickin STUPID idea. 

No likes or wants austerity.. if leadership was easy..  we all could do it..  sometimes being a leader is making hard choices and having to convince your followers/your country that what has to be done is necessary.

Greece ain't getting better terms than they just rejected.. this isn't Italy here and can bring down the whole Euro by having its economy go tits up.  Greece just a big f**k YOU to the EU. I wouldn't be surprised if they just say.. ok.. well then f**k you. Enjoy never being able to reopen your banks.  That country is going 1930's depression baby
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Congrats, Greece! Clap
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Thats why I'am following with care, Micky. There are ways to avoid this, going to the right or the left (only future will tell).

It all depends...
- From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
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Points: 46827 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2015 at 22:42
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Congrats, Greece! Clap





save that picture for posterity will you... and check back in an month.... perhaps even the electricity might still be  on ... LOL
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Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

ehh...  dude I consider myself pretty damn left of center.. but at some point..politics must end and real leadership must start.... and it becomes obvious that destroying your whole economic system can be because your people want it is... a frickin STUPID idea. 

No likes or wants austerity.. if leadership was easy..  we all could do it..  sometimes being a leader is making hard choices and having to convince your followers/your country that what has to be done is necessary.

Greece ain't getting better terms than they just rejected.. this isn't Italy here and can bring down the whole Euro by having its economy go tits up.  Greece just a big f**k YOU to the EU. I wouldn't be surprised if they just say.. ok.. well then f**k you. Enjoy never being able to reopen your banks.  That country is going 1930's depression baby

Well, they are already in 1930s depression. Their economy is in contraction mode and unemployment is already at untenable levels.  It can't possibly get much worse from here on.  At least getting back the Drachma will help them restart the 'printing press' and inflate their way out of trouble, something they couldn't do as long as they were in the Eurozone.  

This is the fundamental problem with the way the Eurozone is organised and it has nothing to do with ideology.  A bunch of nations who have no currency flexibility and yet are expected to run sovereign governments.  Doesn't work.  Preaching austerity in the golden, trillion-dollar age of QE doesn't make sense.  Germany has to soften its stand from hereon because other than them and France, nobody in the Eurozone is in a bright spot at the moment.  
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Points: 46827 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2015 at 22:59
damn right it can get worse.. if they default and leave the Eurozone


then they are going stoneage Roger... and those billions they owe. .will hang over that country for a generation.  NO WAY the EU or Germany willl forgive that debt.  Right or wrong.. things are what they are. Greece has zero leverage here. Life isn't fair.. reality is what is for Greece. Unfortunately their leadership is about to find out those cheers for standing up to big bad Germany will soon turn to anger as things get even worse than any austerity measures brought....

bah.. it is my bedtime...  as you said.. interesting times. 
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That is sadly what Germany would like to believe would happen and it is unlikely to.  A developed nation like Greece will not remain a pariah for long.  They will find benefactors who will of course extract their pound of flesh but they will get back on their feet.  Our nation has seen this situation before, micky.  That is what makes me so confident that leaving the eurozone will work out alright for Greece.  In 1991, India was only two weeks away from running out of foreign exchange to pay for its imports.  You understand...we would have run out of money to pay for oil.  No gas to transport even food items across the country.   You are only talking about no electricity which is um a reality for large parts of India anyway. IMF put together a strings-attached package and we are certainly none the worse for the adventure.  Iceland too defaulted on debt and was treated as a rogue nation for a while.  But they are doing ok now.  There's nothing much the international financial system can do if a sovereign nation refuses to pay.  Sure, they can bully them all they want but what if they still don't pay.  Besides, it is not as if the stellar 'leadership' of IMF or the 'wise men' of Europe did much to avert such a situation. God only knows why they signed up for monetary union without fiscal union and that they were cocksure in their belief that this could work...the mind boggles merely at the contemplation of such phenomenal stupidity.  
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Points: 10213 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2015 at 23:54
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Congrats, Greece! Clap





save that picture for posterity will you... and check back in an month.... perhaps even the electricity might still be  on ... LOL
Oh don't worry, Micky. Winter in Greece is something like a mild autumn, so if oil imports (mainly Greeks are heated with heating oil) decreases to a minimum, there is no frost.
Others, all of necessary things, Ellada has.
Under that their lofty sun manage innumerable types of greens for cooking that are nutritious and above all healthy, and cheap, the various "horta" as the Greeks call it - and they will survive.
If they need a collective diet, say, for five years, it's better 1000s times than austerity measures - forever.
Also, this is an important victory for the radical Left to initiate similar processes in Spain, Italy, Ireland, France and so on.

Edited by Svetonio - July 05 2015 at 23:59
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Points: 9869 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2015 at 01:01
Excellent article on this issue:


Exactly, the notion that it is ok for govts to grant a taxpayer-funded haircut for big banks and big corporations but not sovereign govts is repugnant.  Anyhow, uneasy status quo had prevailed for too long without a light at the end of the tunnel so Greece was bound to blow up.
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Look at these faces! The highest Greek clergy, Archbishop of Athens Ieronimos & Co., who urged the Greeks to vote "yes" to austerity measures.




Even one who does not understand the economy, when sees these faces, that one must vote the opposite of what these guys urge LOL




Edited by Svetonio - July 06 2015 at 01:31
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Excellent article on this issue:



Very interesting article.
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Svetonio View Drop Down
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Points: 10213 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2015 at 05:44
Originally posted by Moogtron III Moogtron III wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Excellent article on this issue:



Very interesting article.
It's a great article. Probably the best article about Greece that I'v been read today.

Edited by Svetonio - July 06 2015 at 05:46
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TGM: Orb View Drop Down
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Points: 8052 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TGM: Orb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2015 at 11:55
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

damn right it can get worse.. if they default and leave the Eurozone


then they are going stoneage Roger... and those billions they owe. .will hang over that country for a generation.  NO WAY the EU or Germany willl forgive that debt.  Right or wrong.. things are what they are. Greece has zero leverage here. Life isn't fair.. reality is what is for Greece. Unfortunately their leadership is about to find out those cheers for standing up to big bad Germany will soon turn to anger as things get even worse than any austerity measures brought....

bah.. it is my bedtime...  as you said.. interesting times. 


Was never going to get better with the EU/IMF's stance. Greece can at least default and eventually rebuild if it gets out of the euro rather than taking on further permanent spiralling debt at the cost of any ability to decide how to repay their creditors (by e.g. tax rises). Going to be interesting seeing how painful the collapse is and how the markets and the EU try to punish the Greeks for straying from the orthodoxy.
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Oh how I wish them well....our friends of this very site....saying my prayers for you! 

It must be absolutely terrifying.  Hug

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Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

damn right it can get worse.. if they default and leave the Eurozone


then they are going stoneage Roger... and those billions they owe. .will hang over that country for a generation.  NO WAY the EU or Germany willl forgive that debt.  Right or wrong.. things are what they are. Greece has zero leverage here. Life isn't fair.. reality is what is for Greece. Unfortunately their leadership is about to find out those cheers for standing up to big bad Germany will soon turn to anger as things get even worse than any austerity measures brought....

bah.. it is my bedtime...  as you said.. interesting times. 


Was never going to get better with the EU/IMF's stance. Greece can at least default and eventually rebuild if it gets out of the euro rather than taking on further permanent spiralling debt at the cost of any ability to decide how to repay their creditors (by e.g. tax rises). Going to be interesting seeing how painful the collapse is and how the markets and the EU try to punish the Greeks for straying from the orthodoxy.

As per IMF's own best case scenario (of 1% average annual GDP growth) it would still take Greece 3 decades to pay off their obligations.  And there's no way they are growing that fast with an expenditure squeeze.  As I said earlier in the thread, the obligations of a sovereign nation have to be handled differently from that of a typical debtor.  And hey, big corporations do get their debt restructured.  It is an annual carnival in India ever since demand dried up in the last couple of years, putting companies that overbet on growth in deep trouble.  They just keep their debt restructured without paying.  I am not saying that is right but I do have trouble understanding why the largesse that is routinely extended to corporations should not be extended to a developed nation.
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this whole situation has been completely bungled by both sides.

grexit is the only way out
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Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

this whole situation has been completely bungled by both sides.

grexit is the only way out
Aside from a few families that serve the banking terrorists as needed local comprador bourgeoisie, money did not go to the Greek people, as it falsely represents by those right-wing oriented media.
It's actually a simple "recipe": firstly, I destroy your economy. Then I open my factory, and your country is my guarantor. Then you raised your credit from my bank, just to buy my goods. Such a failure, you raised a loan, to save my bank, and the same bank is giving a credit to you. You're broke, of course, and I'm taking your big state-owned companies, your fertile land, sources of mineral water, islands, whetever is interesting to me. And we both speak German perfectly LOL

Edited by Svetonio - July 08 2015 at 14:19
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According to The Guardian the Greek government will now accept even harsher conditions than they rejected:

International observers have been telling us today that the package is likely to be so punitive that humanitarian aid cannot be ruled out.

Then it’s back to business as usual, only a bit worse than before. Prepare for strikes and demonstrations.
He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
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Originally posted by refugee refugee wrote:

According to The Guardian the Greek government will now accept even harsher conditions than they rejected:

International observers have been telling us today that the package is likely to be so punitive that humanitarian aid cannot be ruled out.

Then it’s back to business as usual, only a bit worse than before. Prepare for strikes and demonstrations.
Imho, there are three major things that are necessary for the Greek goverment to do immidiately:  to leave eurozone just with one revolutionary *f*ck off* to the terrorists from the banks and related malakas, nationalization of big systems, and then to print drahmas but as non-credit money aswell.
 
Quote Non-credit money is not debt, it's a gift.
Non-credit money is the necessary additional quantity of money in circulation (dM) as percentage (k) of existing quantity of money in circulation (M).

dM = kM ; k = (supply – demand)/demand ;

If non-credit money is emitted according to the cited formula, inflation cannot exist. Also, taxes are anulled for the amount of non-credit money. The consumers pay less and producers get more than today, in the order of credit money.

Non-credit money is created from the growth of economic rationality (no war, no economic crisis). The growth rate of mankind progress is equal to the growth rate of non-credit money. There is national and there is world non-credit money. We must create both national and world order of non-credit money.

There is real cost. If money is emitted as a gift whose cost is zero, money as a gift can determine real cost. Opposite to, money as a credit has cost equal to debt which is added on real cost. Nominal cost (real cost + debt) is greater than real cost. In credit money system, inflation is necessary and real money cannot exist. Real money is money as a gift. Only mathematically perfected economy is formula dM = kM.

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Today, money is put into circulation in the form of credits.

Such credit money is always in short supply.

Increasing the money supply is necessary both because of increases in production and for making up for the money lost due to slowing down of velocity of money circulation.

The required additional quantity of money in circulation is definitive (final), because it is intended to stay in circulation permanently. This cannot be credit money, which is in circulation temporarily, because credits must be returned.

If the rate of increase in quantity of credit money in circulation is such that it creates such an inflation where the rate of increase in quantity of credit money in circulation is greater than the rate of price increases, then the difference in these rates is really non-credit money, which functions as the necessary additional quantity of money in circulation.

If all the necessary additional quantity of money in circulation were immediately emitted as non-credit money, i.e. gift, inflation would disappear.

Movement for non-credit money proposes that the National Parliament issues a Money Law, containing the following:

  1. Banks may issue credits only up to the amount of collected savings.
  2. The creation of new money by issuing credits above the amount of collected savings is prohibited.
  3. The necessary additional quantity of money in circulation, which is printed in the Money Printing Institution, is deposited to the account of the Pension Fund.
  4. Money is put into circulation by paying pensions from the account of the Pension Fund.

Such a mode of money emission secures endless price stability, without inflation and deflation.

Contributions (or taxes) for pensions are thus canceled and the economy is less burdened.

By selling goods to pension beneficiaries, producers secure profits, as pure accumulation for further increase of production (without having to take credits).



Edited by Svetonio - July 09 2015 at 14:17
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http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/royals/6548665/Their-Royal-Heilnesses.html
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