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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Martin Orford August 2009
    Posted: December 31 2009 at 11:19
Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:

Part of the reason older bands from the 70's sound more convincing and can put on a better live show than new bands is because they have the financial backing to do it well.

Not that I have anything personal invested in this point of view. Wink


If only there were another professional musician on the site to give his perspective...



how about if you were paid to stop or not to play at all Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2009 at 10:21
Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:

Part of the reason older bands from the 70's sound more convincing and can put on a better live show than new bands is because they have the financial backing to do it well.

Not that I have anything personal invested in this point of view. Wink


If only there were another professional musician on the site to give his perspective...



If the criteria of "professional" is one who can make a living at it, we're still lacking that input. LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2009 at 04:53
Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:

Part of the reason older bands from the 70's sound more convincing and can put on a better live show than new bands is because they have the financial backing to do it well.

Not that I have anything personal invested in this point of view. Wink


If only there were another professional musician on the site to give his perspective...


Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 29 2009 at 12:23
It would be fine for bands to adapt to the so-called "new model" if there were live venues to play like there used to be, but that has dissolved as well. Ask any working band in Europe how many gigs they play now compared to just a few years ago before the smoking bans, or what has happened to the live scene in the U.S. since the minimum drinking age was raised...

Music fans can exercise good judgment when choosing what to buy and what to steal - if the band is just starting out and is not yet able to tour, there's a pretty good chance they won't continue to exist if people don't support them by buying the music. While it is possible to produce music at a very low cost on a home computer, believe me, people can tell and they will always eventually gravitate towards music that cost thousands of dollars to record, simply because it sounds better. You can only do so much music when working a day job to support it.

Part of the reason older bands from the 70's sound more convincing and can put on a better live show than new bands is because they have the financial backing to do it well.

Not that I have anything personal invested in this point of view. Wink


Edited by jplanet - December 29 2009 at 12:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2009 at 05:23
Very good interview, nice work of all involved and I understand some of Orford´s arguments.  But I´m with Snow Dog.

Cheers

Tarcísio
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2009 at 06:45
Hi Martin,
 
Whatever the future holds do not turn your back on music or your fans. I ALWAYS buy cds or LEGAL downloads and I do not see why people who choose to steal music should profit not only at the expense of the artist but the likes of me and many other loyal fans who lose out because an artist becomes disillusioned and quits.
 
I know of some amazing musicians who record brilliant albums but still work at day jobs simply because they love their music. Have a listen to a guy called Andy Pickford or the band Radio Massacre International and see what I mean.
 
Don't let these unscrupulous lowlifes get the better of you and just make music for the people who care.
 
Cheers,
 
Paul
 
Cheshire
 
PAUL UK.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2009 at 17:24
Originally posted by Charlie Charlie wrote:

I'm sorry If I trivialized the use of the word tragedy . I still have sympathy for Martin, whilst I do not claim to know him well, I met him on a few occasions and he was always friendly and polite . I admired him and what he was trying to achieve and  hope his luck will change.


here's to hoping , that for his fans' sake, he takes some time to read up on bands that are making it today. IQ , from the many rave reviews of their albums (all 4 stars for the Nicholls' releases) certainly seem to be able to draw rabid fans. That's the hard step. Establishing a hard core follwing. The next one is to make it financially viable, even on a part time basis.
You can't learn the first from anyone. You can learn the second step(s)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2009 at 14:19
I'm sorry If I trivialized the use of the word tragedy . I still have sympathy for Martin, whilst I do not claim to know him well, I met him on a few occasions and he was always friendly and polite . I admired him and what he was trying to achieve and  hope his luck will change.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2009 at 18:56
^ rather than continue this line of discussion in what is essentially an Interview thread (which rightly prompted this debate by Martin Orford's frank and candid views) - I think (ie "politely request") we should leave it here and continue in the "Throwaway Download Culture" Thread: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=61653&PID=3405552#3405552 
 
 


Edited by Dean - October 05 2009 at 19:03
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It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2009 at 17:37
Originally posted by Charlie Charlie wrote:

I was greatly saddened to read Martin Orford's  interview. In the past I purchased many of I.Q.s records and C.D's and went to dozens of their gigs throughout the 80's and early 90's. The last time I saw him perform was with John Wetton at his village hall . A great talent, its tragic the modern world and the internet have ended his career. He's right , free music download access should have never been allowed to become this easy.


Martin ended his career. No one or nothing else. And tragedy is something more than a musician being unable to ply his trade.
Maybe in his time off, he can spend some time researching and learning how other musicians are able to face the same challenges and make a living at it.
I wish that Three Friends would come play Moncton, but there after doing some informal polling , we don't feel there's enough people interested in buying tickets to warrant a promoter taking the chance even for a small 400 seat gig.
But that's not a tragedy. My wife's mentally ill uncle living in an abandoned trailer is. a little perspective please ...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2009 at 17:13
I was greatly saddened to read Martin Orford's  interview. In the past I purchased many of I.Q.s records and C.D's and went to dozens of their gigs throughout the 80's and early 90's. The last time I saw him perform was with John Wetton at his village hall . A great talent, its tragic the modern world and the internet have ended his career. He's right , free music download access should have never been allowed to become this easy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2009 at 11:54
Oh, if I may trouble y'all with an example of what a band shouldn't do , and how just the one thing can undo all the good they do ...
as quoted from the Bob Lefsetz email newsletter Oct 1 :

"Subject: RE: Sales-Week Ending 9/27/09

Hi, Bob. Thanks for your always-informative sales commentary, leading with Pearl Jam this week. I was a longtime PJ fan, having been a devoted Ten Club member since 1996 (with a coveted low member number), so I have access to all the better seats in the house. I receive the vinyl Christmas singles (even if they do arrive in late spring). I get the newsletter. I buy the posters. I attend every local show.
 
Am I buying "Backspacer"?  No. Here's why...the band is anti-social media. Which means they are anti-fan.
 
In a nutshell, Pearl Jam destroyed my YouTube account. I'd attended last summer's Eddie Vedder tour in support of the "Into the Wild" soundtrack (8th row, thank you), and yeah, I shot a few videos. Crappy, wobbly, mono videos with audience noise. Yeah, I shared them with fellow fans on YouTube.
 
The Ten Club's response? They removed not only the EV videos, but MY ENTIRE YOUTUBE ACCOUNT.  More than 400 videos...gone. Without notice. And some of those were family videos that were corrupted in a PC hard drive problem, so I can't ever get them back.
 
All this because I shared a few amateur videos with fellow fans on YouTube? I never imagined Pearl Jam would be that media illiterate; I always assumed they were a savvy, intelligent, fan-friendly band. I understand if they're saving the material for an EV DVD, but do they REALLY think my wobbly vids could compete with a commercial DVD? Don't they know I'd have purchased the DVD anyway? And maybe some copies as gifts for friends?
 
Well, not anymore. And not "Backspacer," either. And I'm not likely to see them live ever again. It may be time to give up that member number of 161XXX.

Please keep my name anonymous. I don't need any further YouTube hassles with my new account. In fact, I've taken to using the following fair use disclaimer on anything I post moving forward:

DISCLAIMER -- Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use.
 
___________________________________________
___________________________________________"""


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2009 at 11:42
sometimes I am able to rise to match others' excellence ... Cool
Teaflax brought some good points too. I was lucky that a little birdy gave me some tough love insight on a few thingsEmbarrassed

Anyways, I'm off to send another email off to Gens de la Lune and Ange about how some of their target market are interested in internet downloads. Whether they include full cover, artwork and music and all or just the music in one accessible download.

And for those interested in Voivod, $11.42CAD gets you the whole package (music, artwork, lyrics, inserts)  in FLAC (a  lossless codec, meaning that once you decompress it, you can burn it to a blank  CD and have the same quality as a manufactured copy).
Available at
http://www.sonicunyonstore.com/product_info.php?products_id=2406&osCsid=u87fjp46grfij44fo3sodh4ah6

For this release, they also offer MP3 at 192 bits, FLAC, CD + mp3 download, and CD + FLAC download. with shipping available to the U.S., and international destinations.

hopefully I mange to write a decent review of it shortly ...



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2009 at 02:36
ClapHug
 
I thought this: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=61454&PID=3404139#3404139 was one of the best posts I've read on the post "Pandora's Box" issue. Clap


Edited by Dean - October 05 2009 at 02:44
"You know what uranium is, right?
It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2009 at 20:08
Given my need to apologies to Nick Barrett for some of my comments, I would also like to extend a heartfelt thanks to Dean for very well thought out and reasoned counterpoints to my posts. We do agree on much , we do disagree on much. But I believe that his opinion is honestly held , and hopefully gives pause to think to those who believe that they already know enough to determine  whether illegal downloads are completely harmless. They may be right. But so might Dean. And there might be a middle ground somewhere, a few miles past Rogersville, before you get to Kent Junction Confused

Whether one agreed with his presentations, they are well worth taking the time to read. They went way beyond the simple knee jerk reactions that both sides of this arguement often resort to. In any debate outside academic or political competitions, one wishes for one best result. That, if it ends with no clear "winner", both sides have still been able to offer a clear presentation of their case, which in turn should give their opposites a better understanding of the actual position held by the other,   and hopefully a way to ensure that we don't dismiss others' beliefs without questioning the validity of our own.

I mentioned this in the Metallica thread, and I repeat it here. When we take the time to think about what we write, to understand the other's meaning , and to do our best to reply in a respectful manner to the actual points made, we at PA are very well able to (and deserving of) handle controversial or heated debates. And yes, sometimes we may be the only people on earth who even think that they are controversial (AC/DC in ProgArchives ? So what ? They're either in or not, right ?).

Oh, and someday, my posts will be as well edited as Dean's. 'Cause when I grow up, I want to be an admin Tongue

or as one of my long ago ball hockey team mates would say - good battles ... Thumbs Up


Edited by debrewguy - October 04 2009 at 20:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2009 at 20:03
PT II
 I think I must have missed this in the various posts, but here goes

part of the drop in album sales can also be attributed to the music fan now being able to get the song(s) that they actually want. NO need to buy a  $20 CD top get that one hit . This is why an act like Creed will never be able to sell albums any more.(Clown) . It may be less of a factor in Prog, but realistically, there are prog bands out there who can't or don't put out  albums filled with decent material. But there are some that have that really killer tune that you just gotta have ! Just not for 20 bucks !
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2009 at 19:55
before my next post, two quick comments ...
following my apologies to Nick Barrett, I should explain that what really set me off was the impression of entitlement given by one musician who seemed angry at having been (seemingly) unable to face challenges that many comparable groups find themselves in, and have managed to overcome.

pt II to follow
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2009 at 19:34
Originally posted by Teaflax Teaflax wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I do not believe that whatever an artist says will alienate any of their potential fanbase - it never has in the past and it won't in the future.


Then you have not been paying attention. Direct and respectful communication with fans is what makes many acts do well in today's new market. Read up on what Trent Reznor's been doing. If he'd just been releasing CDs and whining about all of the people who don't buy it, there's no way he would have the success he's had in the last few years. Check Jonathan Coulton's donation system Banana, Monkey, Robot, which wouldn't work if he wasn't building goodwill directly with fans (not to mention his MP3 sales).
Is this going to be on the test paper? I'll promise to pay attention in the future if it is. Tongue
 
As someone who has been following Trent Reznor since Pretty Hate Machine I'm pretty sure that his current activities have no bearing on whether Ghosts I-IV or The Slip would have been sucessful or not - of course neither of us can prove that one way or the other, however his argument was with his label and his subsequent encouragement to fans to steal his earlier albums was to get back at Interscope - after that he had little choice but to find another way - I bought both albums on CD and would have done if he had signed to another label.
Originally posted by Teaflax Teaflax wrote:


There is a huge number of people out there who feel that the activities of the RIAA have been a witch hunt on people who have done nothing wrong (or at least nothing that warrants that kind of reaction) and who will boycott artists who they feel support that behavior. I have several friends who will not buy any major label releases any more because of it. I'm kind of there myself. I prefer to purchase directly from the artist, so that I know that they get the lion's share of the money.
My first reaction was "well they would feel that way wouldn't they" - but on reflection, given the complete ineffectuality of any RIAA action, I wonder what they are really rebelling against. I stopped buying later Metallica albums because I simply didn't like Load and Unload, not because of their attitude to downloading. I buy direct from the artist where possible for the same reasons as you - I also donate to bands that offer free downloads from their websites when there is a PayPal button to click on.
Originally posted by Teaflax Teaflax wrote:


Thinking that fans don't pay attention to what artists say is just weird. Personally, I don't buy Beck albums any more because I find Scientology a dangerous and reprehensible cult. Are you saying you would still buy good music from an artist who came out as a racist and homophobe?

Attitudes and behaviors are hugely important, because it shapes people's views of the artists.
I don't recall saying anything like that, and anyone who knows me will tell you I never would.
 
We all have our own standards - I didn't stop liking the Beatles after John said they were more popular than jesus (I was a christian at the time) and I didn't stop listening to Gary Numan when he came out in support for Margret Thatcher and the Tories. However if I had any Johnathon King or Gary Glitter albums it would be different. Rock Stars are no brighter or cleverer than anyone else - they say stupid things sometimes and in the main we forgive them for it. Boycotting an artitst because they disaprove of people downloading albums that they didn't authourise is petty.
Originally posted by Teaflax Teaflax wrote:


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

There is a degree of separation between artist and public that generally makes the public think that it doesn't apply to them personally.


The separation is breaking down, and anyone who wants to thrive in the music business today should be aware of that and do their best to tear those barriers down.

Sure, at some level of success, you can't personally engage every single fan, but as dabrewguy posted above, there are plenty of ways to make your fan base feel more special and involved (like Reznor's scheme to book the first couple of rows at every concert and sell the tickets to fan club members at cost to cut down on people having to pay ridiculous sums to scalpers).
And the situation where Sigur Ros balked at the US promoter who demanded 50% of the merchandise takings, so charged $1 for every t-shirt. More power to them. I'm not condemning that kind of behaviour - I think it's great, I'm just asking that artists who say that illegal downloading is hurting them should be given the opportunity to say that without being accused of whinging and whining.
Originally posted by Teaflax Teaflax wrote:


I think I'm getting the attitude now; artists should sit in their ivory towersa nd  toss a the grateful masses a CD every few years. How very 20th century of you.
How very unperceptive of you. Stern Smile
 
"You know what uranium is, right?
It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2009 at 18:49
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I do not believe that whatever an artist says will alienate any of their potential fanbase - it never has in the past and it won't in the future.


Then you have not been paying attention. Direct and respectful communication with fans is what makes many acts do well in today's new market. Read up on what Trent Reznor's been doing. If he'd just been releasing CDs and whining about all of the people who don't buy them, there's no way he would have the success he's had in the last few years. Check Jonathan Coulton's donation system Banana, Monkey, Robot, which wouldn't work if he wasn't building goodwill directly with fans (not to mention his MP3 sales).

There is a huge number of people out there who feel that the activities of the RIAA have been a witch hunt on people who have done nothing wrong (or at least nothing that warrants that kind of reaction) and who will boycott artists who they feel support that behavior. I have several friends who will not buy any major label releases any more because of it. I'm kind of there myself. I prefer to purchase directly from the artist, so that I know that they get the lion's share of the money.

Thinking that fans don't pay attention to what artists say is just weird. Personally, I don't buy Beck albums any more because I find Scientology a dangerous and reprehensible cult. Are you saying you would still buy good music from an artist who came out as a racist and homophobe?

Attitudes and behaviors are hugely important, because it shapes people's views of the artists.

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

There is a degree of separation between artist and public that generally makes the public think that it doesn't apply to them personally.


The separation is breaking down, and anyone who wants to thrive in the music business today should be aware of that and do their best to tear those barriers down.

Sure, at some level of success, you can't personally engage every single fan, but as dabrewguy posted above, there are plenty of ways to make your fan base feel more special and involved (like Reznor's scheme to book the first couple of rows at every concert and sell the tickets to fan club members at cost to cut down on people having to pay ridiculous sums to scalpers).

I think I'm getting the attitude now; artists should sit in their ivory towers and  toss the grateful masses a CD every few years. How very 20th century of you.


Edited by Teaflax - October 04 2009 at 19:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2009 at 18:40
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Teaflax Teaflax wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


And through necessity that's what all artists are doing, they know they cannot make the problem go away so they are working around it. But that doesn't mean they have to be happy about it, swallow every justification that d/loaders make or treat them fairly for having put the artist in that situation.


If they want to alienate parts of their potential fanbase, they're certainly entitled to do so. It just seems rather dumb.

I do not believe that whatever an artist says will alienate any of their potential fanbase - it never has in the past and it won't in the future. There is a degree of separation between artist and public that generally makes the public think that it doesn't apply to them personally.


Actually , Judas Priest's complaints in the mid 80s about how they should be getting more attention and success because of Iron Maiden was doing ( i.e. ripping off) what JP had been doing before (double leads, bye bye blues influences etc) did cost them some fans. Who cares for a wuss in leather ? Mind you , this was before Ram It Down ...
Was that fans or potential fans? Wink
 
From my experience of NWOBH in the 80s is that is was a reaction against the decline of Old Wave British Heavy Metal, of which Judas Priest were certainly a part of, however they managed to bridge the gap and had reasonable success in the mid 80s (if platinum albums are anything to go by).
"You know what uranium is, right?
It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."
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