Musical maschocism - hit me with your rhythm stick

Originally posted by BaldJean I rarely find music really painful. if I don't like it is not because it feels painful to me. prog metal is definitely not my favorite genre, but I am not pained by it; I am just disappointed that most bands don't deliver what they promise. they are like dogs that bark (and they do it loud and fast), but they don't really bite. harmonically they are usually very conventional, and the instrumentation is usually pretty conventional too. is there any  prog metal band with a sax player, for example? not that I know of at least; if there is please tell me, and I will give them a listen. a really dirty sax, or perhaps a dirty violin played a bit like Chris Karrer of Amon Düül 2 does, and I would probably like it. after all, I like Skyclad, a metal band which is not prog but plays with a wild violinist. it is by no means metal in general I dislike; I dislike the dichotomy between the dynamic and temporal wildness and the harmonic tameness

Originally posted by moebius Originally posted by BaldJean I rarely find music really painful. if I don't like it is not because it feels painful to me. prog metal is definitely not my favorite genre, but I am not pained by it; I am just disappointed that most bands don't deliver what they promise. they are like dogs that bark (and they do it loud and fast), but they don't really bite. harmonically they are usually very conventional, and the instrumentation is usually pretty conventional too. is there any  prog metal band with a sax player, for example? not that I know of at least; if there is please tell me, and I will give them a listen. a really dirty sax, or perhaps a dirty violin played a bit like Chris Karrer of Amon Düül 2 does, and I would probably like it. after all, I like Skyclad, a metal band which is not prog but plays with a wild violinist. it is by no means metal in general I dislike; I dislike the dichotomy between the dynamic and temporal wildness and the harmonic tameness Hey you should really try ZU, an almost metal band with low saxophone and no guitar at all. My favorite song here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcZlKwbvgCE&feature=related And if you don´t listen to Sleepytime Gorilla Museum YET, this song may correct that behavior: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8mgMZg7PjI

I listened to several tracks of ZU and liked them all. that's what I expect prog metal to sound like, not those toothless dogs that usually get all the praise but sound much too clean.
Sleepytime Gorilla Museum are very much a mixed bag from what I have heard of them so far. this track, however, is excellent

It's certainly less boring. :P

Generally I prefer stuff to strike me as at least good upon first listen.
Probably why I was pissed off at the latest PT record, I gave it a good chance, over 10 listens, and not once did it do it for me and I honestly don't want to bother to have go through that with anything else anymore.
MAYBE I can come back to it in about 10 years, but for the next few, I certainly don't want to ever hear it again.
Sometimes some of these albums, after many many listens, I find to be truly brilliant.
10 000 Days from Tool is an example of this. It was good for the first 100 listens or so, then about a year after I bought it, it just hit me like a ton of bricks how amazing I thought it really was.

Colors by Between the Buried and Me, Choirs of the Eye by Kayo Dot and Circus of Sound from fusion geniuses Ohm: were certainly records that instantly struck me as worthy of 10/10

Originally posted by stonebeard If people want to experience music and get enjoyment out of it through pushing themselves to like harsher and more exterme kinds of music, that's fine. Just don't pretend for a second it's better than more acessable music because it's tougher on the ears.

After an overdose on avant garde, tech/extreme metal and all manner of drone doom, I figured I'd become clinically insane if that's all I listened to, so I actually started listening to a lot of pop music in recent times.
Listening to both seems to make each other better, that is to say the more extreme inaccessible music has made listening to pop more enjoyable and vice versa.
I think life is about contrasts anyway, I don't like to limit myself to one extreme or the other, nor do I like to cancel out what's in the middle, I can enjoy it all really.

Originally posted by Hercules I listened to Pawn Hearts and disliked it. So I listened to it a few more times and now I loathe it with a passion. Same with Trout Mask Replica, First Utterance and Frances the Mute - I hated them from the first listen and no amount of exposure is going to change that. Very few albums/bands suddenly click after repeated plays; Gentle Giant is the only band where that's happened to me. Mostly, if it sounds like s**t first time out, it's because it is s**t.

So you just paid out Pawn Hearts, Trout Mask Replica and Frances the Mute in one -virtual- breath.

Kill yourself

But seriously, I don't think this is the case. Most anything will click if you listen to it enough - the hard part is determining whether this is a good thing or a bad thing for you. Take for example, Thick as a Brick. Took me a long time to get into that, but now I ADORE it. It was a change for the better. However, is my (small) tech metal collection with its intense time sig changes a good thing to get into, or just a celebration of complexity? That's a question for another discussion, I guess.

P.S. Sorry about above, in case you have sensitive feelings. Just a joke and all.... hahaha NEVER PAY OUT FRANCES THE MUTE AGAIN hahaha

I think somebody has hit a chord in me, which I might summarise as "listening out for redeemable features ".  Apart from albums that hit the button straightaway, then why go back to music that is far less attractive on first hearing? It may be down to a single or a handful of short sections (not necessarily together), that resonant after in my mind - e.g. a riff, interesting/unusual  interplay of instruments, and certainly what did it from  the early days of progressive music, the marriage rock with other musical forms that result in a form that fresh to me. So there are triggers that have me going back a second time to a record, subconsciously attempting to discover whether  such small resonances giving clues to the whole,  and so  discovering things missed the first time.

There are albums where nothing resonates (and why should I like what some pundits tells me is "great" when what I hear grates and continues to do so?).  There too are albums I've come "blind to" and trying to pick up clues from sleeve note notes doesn't help, e.g.  Agnes Buen Garnas/Jan Garbarek's Rosensfole, with the LP's front  announcing a collection of 'medieval Norwegian folk music' , with a black & white photo of reindeer. That was a promo received in the late 80's, unsolicited, with me saying to myself: "oh gawd what have ECM sent me now" - but this became to my favourite album of the year. But the ECM promo of a Swiss jazz fusion group, which had the promise of something interesting, i.e. violin and alpenhorn, had no redeemable  moments on hearing - in fact it was as bad as that combination of instruments should have suggested on first reading, made worse by boring compositions and arrangements.

RIO  is a challenge - Henry Cow's Legend/Leg End was easy for me, as I heard strong Soft Machine influences (in deed SM might be a challenge for some, but part of my assimilation was to start at the beginning with the band's music and grow with them) - later albums were more problematic. Robert Wyatt's proto RIO End Of An Ear hooked me easily whilst his colleague Hugh Hopper's 1983 was a really struggle. MDK was a doddle, perhaps because I had had several years of conditioning, in part  I enjoyed the rocked/jazzed up elements of Carmina Burana - having been introduced to and instantly pulled in by Carl Orff's choral work in late 1970. My first real jazz rock album was Tony Williams Lifetime's Turn It Over - a huge part of the album  grabbed immediately but there were parts that needed rehearing to find out how these integrated with the rest of the album - as somebody has said such "difficult" parts can have a reinforcing effect: for me going to the album over the past 40 year, again and again and still hearing something fresh. So why should Mr Bungle appeal, while Shake your skinny fist (but I have the teeshirt) does nothing?

But what of the albums that resonated instantly and loudly but become cracked bells with time and over-play - why? Do we grow up and probably hear far better given time - but this is theme of another thread? "When I was a childI thought as a child" - name the tune that lifted this line from the NT? Or the music was not  designed for a persistent of over-play, and so was not as great as a reviewer stated in the first place?

Thanks to those who have intellectualised and put their experiences here, you've made me think more broadly/deeply. Thanks to the person who surmissed I might have heard more albums than some - may be yes /may be no, but  with a collection of about 7000 albums on various formats, I can say I 've heard a lot  (but I'm a relatively old fart).

Final thought - in the early 90's I used to get students tell me: I don't like jazz. And depending on levels of intolerance in me, my response would be either:
"What sort of jazz don't you like"

"You'll grow up"

WRT the latter and this thread, maturing does means greater exposure and in theory greater understanding. But equally it can mean moving to something else if a particular album doesn't appeal. Similarly youth will have it arguments - but I'm too old to remember those!!!


Edited by Dick Heath - October 25 2009 at 07:32

Originally posted by Dick Heath This was triggered off by a review of a Mahavishnu Orchestra album (which I cherish) published a few days ago, which left me thinking: has this person heard the same album as me? But each to his/her own.

Edited by Dean - October 25 2009 at 12:10

Originally posted by ExittheLemming Originally posted by Rocktopus Originally posted by stonebeard If people want to experience music and get enjoyment out of it through pushing themselves to like harsher and more exterme kinds of music, that's fine. Just don't pretend for a second it's better than more acessable music because it's tougher on the ears. It depends. Its much worse pretending that all music is equally good, and it all comes down to personal tastes bullsh*t. But that doesn't mean The Carpenters or The Monkees aren't better than neoprog. Post of the century to date. I too am of the stubborn conviction that Neo-Prog can be likened to Neo- Nazi (i.e. much worse the second time around and too plain dumb to learn from the past) Democracy has never, does not or ever will have any place in the arts.

Hot damn that bites.

I do think certain music is better than other music. I can't justify why, though, so it's probably a crappy belief to have. But everyone has it, and there's no consensus on what is just oh so superb music outside of critics who can pretentiously like the most dissonant avant-jazz.

Originally posted by moebius Originally posted by BaldJean I rarely find music really painful. if I don't like it is not because it feels painful to me. prog metal is definitely not my favorite genre, but I am not pained by it; I am just disappointed that most bands don't deliver what they promise. they are like dogs that bark (and they do it loud and fast), but they don't really bite. harmonically they are usually very conventional, and the instrumentation is usually pretty conventional too. is there any  prog metal band with a sax player, for example? not that I know of at least; if there is please tell me, and I will give them a listen. a really dirty sax, or perhaps a dirty violin played a bit like Chris Karrer of Amon Düül 2 does, and I would probably like it. after all, I like Skyclad, a metal band which is not prog but plays with a wild violinist. it is by no means metal in general I dislike; I dislike the dichotomy between the dynamic and temporal wildness and the harmonic tameness Hey you should really try ZU, an almost metal band with low saxophone and no guitar at all. My favorite song here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcZlKwbvgCE&feature=related And if you don´t listen to Sleepytime Gorilla Museum YET, this song may correct that behavior: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8mgMZg7PjI

Thanks for the ZU sample.

I already have heard some Sleepytime Gorilla Museum and loved everything I have heard.