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Anti-Mood Music: The Rejection Of Environment

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  Quote Textbook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Anti-Mood Music: The Rejection Of Environment
    Posted: October 28 2009 at 16:52
Here's a theory of mine about prog, though I'd be shocked if it had never been discussed before. A lot of conventional music is about embracing a place/atmosphere. The small town America of country western, the dance floor of techno, the smokey club of jazz, the ghetto of rap, the party of pop etc. There's a consistant identity to them. They match various life experiences. You can use them to enhance a physical location or to mentally transport yourself to one.
 
But you can't play prog at parties. It involves a shutting out of the outside world, and seems to involve a disconnection from your environment. The prog artist says: "Evoking recognisable environs/personalities does not interest me. I shall just make something up that does not synch with any particular life experience." Whereas with the other genres the artist collaborates with his surroundings, with prog the artist either rams various sets of surroundings together in a way that does not occur in life or just closes his eyes and reaches inside of himself in an attempt to make something that surroundings have no influence on. Rather than attempting to create songs which suit an emotion someone has or feels like having as is the case with conventional music, prog seems to try to go beyond typical emotional collocations. This sounds like it would create somethin inhuman/alien but the opposite is often true because people do not live lives in terms of bland, steady sections of emotion like we see in radio music. Our lives dart here and there in terms of experience, happy, sad, angry, scary, quiet, loud- as much as we sometimes want lives to be patterened and ordered as genre songs are, there is something false about it. In it's rejection of sounding like something that large unspecific groups of people can enjoy, prog ironically becomes more human.
 
Hope this made sense, may be addendums later if it doesn't.
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  Quote Progosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2009 at 18:06
Geek: So the enjoyment of Prog is an internal, perhaps even introverted process?  Would this make it anti-social?  Is it perhaps a matter of music for musics sake?  Just some questions that came to mind to further explore this topic.
 
I don't know about calling it more human, but I would say there is at least a potential for something more authentic in the listening of prog.  Those of us who appreciate it don't always care about what is fashionable or the tastes of others.  We know what we like, even if we have to stay inside our wardrobes to enjoy it.  I say this purely in terms of listening to prog, and not some of the other genres mentioned.  But is not an introspective response to a musical genre also a life experience?  Perhaps more personal, more intimate than the others, but it is something people engage in.  Even if others are not involved, it is still the experience of the one listening.
You can't develop a better appreciation of the art merely by reading a book about it. If you want to understand music better, you can do nothing more important than listen to it. - Aaron Copland
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  Quote Henry Plainview Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2009 at 18:55

Most classic prog would work at a party, as long as it's not a dance party, and just because a prog song has no words or is about celestial nonsense doesn't mean it's not trying to evoke a real experience. 

Conor Fynes on Miley Cyrus:
"Im suprised progheads insult her... Wasn't she that woman that did guest vocals on 'Coil' from Opeth's Watershed?"
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  Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2009 at 19:02
You need to invite a better quality of people to your parties.  I've been to parties where prog was played and enjoyed.  Granted it was back in the dark ages of the late '70's/early '80's.  There may not be a consistent environment that prog connects one to, that's it's beauty.  What was the middle part?Tongue

One of the really neat things I've found with prog and driving is how sometimes it gets in sync with the action.


Edited by Slartibartfast - October 28 2009 at 19:21
A penny for my thoughts and yet I have to put my two cents in. What the hell is wrong with this equation?

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  Quote santiagomo87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2009 at 19:37
I will tell you a scenery of prog: a giant concert hall/stadium with massive performances. Just kidding it really doesn't fit to all prog. But I do agree with you: prog can be very very introvert. I no longer play any prog when any of my friends are around. Even friends who are musicians themselves become unconfortable when listening to prog with me, i don't think it is a social activity to listen to prog and I learned it the hard way. There is a bunch of good indie rock in my collection that fits perfectly to parties, so why ruin it.
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  Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2009 at 20:57
Originally posted by Textbook

Here's a theory of mine about prog, though I'd be shocked if it had never been discussed before. A lot of conventional music is about embracing a place/atmosphere. The small town America of country western, the dance floor of techno, the smokey club of jazz, the ghetto of rap, the party of pop etc. There's a consistant identity to them. They match various life experiences. You can use them to enhance a physical location or to mentally transport yourself to one.
 
But you can't play prog at parties. It involves a shutting out of the outside world, and seems to involve a disconnection from your environment. The prog artist says: "Evoking recognisable environs/personalities does not interest me. I shall just make something up that does not synch with any particular life experience." Whereas with the other genres the artist collaborates with his surroundings, with prog the artist either rams various sets of surroundings together in a way that does not occur in life or just closes his eyes and reaches inside of himself in an attempt to make something that surroundings have no influence on. Rather than attempting to create songs which suit an emotion someone has or feels like having as is the case with conventional music, prog seems to try to go beyond typical emotional collocations. This sounds like it would create somethin inhuman/alien but the opposite is often true because people do not live lives in terms of bland, steady sections of emotion like we see in radio music. Our lives dart here and there in terms of experience, happy, sad, angry, scary, quiet, loud- as much as we sometimes want lives to be patterened and ordered as genre songs are, there is something false about it. In it's rejection of sounding like something that large unspecific groups of people can enjoy, prog ironically becomes more human.
 
Hope this made sense, may be addendums later if it doesn't.


Despite one or two misgivings re the inhuman/alien analogy I do agree with most of the post. For a long time now music (perhaps mostly mainstream) is treated by its consumers as a soundtrack to accompany their activities i.e. a commodity or accessory. There is of course the danger (of which clearly you are aware) that such a conclusion will merely serve only to confirm the worst confirmation bias about prog as viewed from afar - that it's introspective weird stuff that inhabits a fantasy world populated by Conan the Librarians etc. As far as countering this ingrained perception goes, I for one would prefer the delusional substance of prog to the unrealistic aspirations foisted on consumers by fantasy economists. I am surrounded daily by some very unhappy people who appear resentful of not living the dream as portrayed in pop videos.
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  Quote Textbook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2009 at 21:13
Addendum: I think a lot of mainstream music is redundant in that it tries to capture a way you already feel or are familiar with. Prog seems to attempt to express something with little to no regard for how sympathetic people will be.
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  Quote TODDLER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2009 at 21:49
As said before and understood by many on this site, prog was excepted internationally from early to mid 70's. Probably Jethro Tull, ELP, Yes etc.  Many people in today's society can't concieve that as factual. It's written in history but, doesn't seem to be very significant to people. I think logically the course of time is to blame for that. The times we were living in were so different. There was no MTV and rock music videos were not part of the pop culture. The fact that people in general were not smothered by music videos, it opended up a whole new dimension or way of thinking about music. As a result many people at that time enjoyed hearing an instrument played at a rapid speed or epic pieces composed around a strange subject matter. I don't think we will ever see this reaction from vast quanities of people again.  
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  Quote yes0genesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2009 at 01:05
That's the most depressing yet true statement I have heard in a while.
"To be proven WRONG should be CELEBRATED-- for it is elevating someone to a new level of UNDERSTANDING, furthering AWARENESS."
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  Quote Mr ProgFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2009 at 02:26
It's an interesting thought ... but not true IMO. Prog may be more complex, sophisticated, involved - whatever you call it, but of course it also often relates to real world sceneries/situations. Listen to Genesis - Cinema Show or Supper's Ready for example - or VdGG's Plague of Lighthouse Keepers. Maybe the difference is that in Prog those references are often rapidly changing, or they're distorted/enhanced like in dreams (or nightmares).
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  Quote Textbook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2009 at 04:23
Toddler: A lot of people liking it at one point doesn't disprove my theory. There could be situations where a large number of people lose interest in mass cookie cutter music, it doesn't HAVE to be a tiny minority who feel this way. The size of the fanbase isn't relevant to what I was saying.
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  Quote Synchestra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2009 at 05:18
I don't know about anyone else, but the mood prog represents to me isn't so much a place or a situation as it is a space inside myself where i can just relax and let my thoughts flow. Ok that sounds cheesey, the point is, prog doesnt need to be a soundtrack to a way of life. The music is written for the sake of expression, if that makes sense Tongue
I'm not insane, I'm not insane im just a little smarter than you - Devin Townsend
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  Quote Dick Heath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2009 at 07:42
When prog music/rock was above-ground in the early 70's, live gigs found audiences sitting down  and usually required to concentrate - like attending a classical concert -  and this tended to be via the college/university circuit in the UK.  It is clear that Genesis moving to stadium rock, felt obliged to get at least part of their audiences standing up and dancing - check out the 12" single  a live version Turn It On Again includes a number of danceable 60's and 70's pop hits.
 
Also consider  some of the vocal, anti-prog brigade claims against prog rock. Both Peel and Mike Farren (in his autobiography) bemoaned prog as being too complicated and not simple like rock'n'roll - and not having strong grooves that encouraged one to dance to the music.  (Ironic considering some of the undanceable music Peel played on his radio show up until his death). A pity that very few people stood up to these pundits in the media  in the 80's and 90's - when we should have told them to piss off and not to denegrate music they don't understand, especially if these guys only(?) wanted to dance to simplier, beat heavy and usually shorter tunes. Peel also said something of the sort : "listening prog and I found I needed A levels to understand, when all I had was GCSEs" - which implies prog was/is elitist music: I for one would not agree. You don't need any special education to enjoy music, whatever form - if it sounds good to your ears, go for it! Why should pundits have so much power to put down certain musics, when at best they can only argue against these in abstract terms.
 
Note: GCSE, general certificate of education examination teken at 15-16 years old in the UK.
A levels - advanced level certificates taken typically at 18 years - a certain number of these certificates in different subjects passed above certain grades, open the door to university level education (if you can afford the fees) , You needs GCSEs to be able to do A level courses. 3 or 4 A levels with good grades are approx equaivalent to the international baccalaureate for UK entrance requirements.


Edited by Dick Heath - October 29 2009 at 07:44
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  Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2009 at 08:24
^^ There were probably more prog fans among Peels listeners than he realised. I used to tune in regularly, even if just to hear how bad the music was at times.

This is the point, the vast majority of prog fans I've known (either through this forum, or at school etc) liked all sorts of music. They were gerenally open minded people, who heard the good in all types of music, before the bad. Prog fans are not super clever people, who seek profound complexity, depth and significance in music..they are merely receptive to it, if it is there.

In general I do consider prog rock a bit of a loners pursuit. It's fine if all your friends want to come round and listen to prog all night, but generally they dont. They would rather watch the football, then go to the pub watch some tin pot pub band, burping out Oasis covers. Prog wouldn't last a nano-second at any party I've been to in the last 20 years.
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  Quote omri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2009 at 09:38
Textbook,
 
I think I never read anything like it here in the last 4 years.
I think this is the kind of thread that makes me visit the forum quite often.
I am not sure I agree to everything you said (though by heart it sounds reasonable) but this is what I expect to get from a true prog / music lover - A unique, fresh and interesting point of view.
I enjoyed reading it (and also some of the other posts).
Thankyou.
omri
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  Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2009 at 11:12
Originally posted by Dick Heath

When prog music/rock was above-ground in the early 70's, live gigs found audiences sitting down  and usually required to concentrate - like attending a classical concert -  and this tended to be via the college/university circuit in the UK.  It is clear that Genesis moving to stadium rock, felt obliged to get at least part of their audiences standing up and dancing - check out the 12" single  a live version Turn It On Again includes a number of danceable 60's and 70's pop hits.
 
Also consider  some of the vocal, anti-prog brigade claims against prog rock. Both Peel and Mike Farren (in his autobiography) bemoaned prog as being too complicated and not simple like rock'n'roll - and not having strong grooves that encouraged one to dance to the music.  (Ironic considering some of the undanceable music Peel played on his radio show up until his death). A pity that very few people stood up to these pundits in the media  in the 80's and 90's - when we should have told them to piss off and not to denegrate music they don't understand, especially if these guys only(?) wanted to dance to simplier, beat heavy and usually shorter tunes. Peel also said something of the sort : "listening prog and I found I needed A levels to understand, when all I had was GCSEs" - which implies prog was/is elitist music: I for one would not agree. You don't need any special education to enjoy music, whatever form - if it sounds good to your ears, go for it! Why should pundits have so much power to put down certain musics, when at best they can only argue against these in abstract terms.
 
Note: GCSE, general certificate of education examination teken at 15-16 years old in the UK.
A levels - advanced level certificates taken typically at 18 years - a certain number of these certificates in different subjects passed above certain grades, open the door to university level education (if you can afford the fees) , You needs GCSEs to be able to do A level courses. 3 or 4 A levels with good grades are approx equaivalent to the international baccalaureate for UK entrance requirements.


I do have a certain amount of sympathy for this view and notwithstanding his unstinting policy of playing 'new' music always, there was a hypocrisy at the heart of the John Peel mindset e.g. during the 60's on his Perfumed Garden radio show (from memory ?), he would regularly play music by the Nice and other proggers (provided he didn't deem such bands too successful to be still 'trendy') The moment a group's music so much as peeked timidly through the door marked 'bigger and better things' he dropped them pronto from his playlists. T'was ever thus.
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  Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2009 at 11:16
Originally posted by Synchestra

 Ok that sounds cheesey, the point is, prog doesnt need to be a soundtrack to a way of life. The music is written for the sake of expression, if that makes sense Tongue

Yeah...there is no need for the music to be acceptable within a certain regular social setting, in which case it becomes a secondary accessory to that setting..it should engage you on an independent level and force you to make time for it.  I expect great music to transport me, not just entertain me or the company I keep.  I am not saying that prog is the only genre where this is achieved but at least some prog artists do strive to create a musical expression without consciously endeavouring to make it suitable for a particular social setting.  

Though I wasn't around in the times Dick Heath mentions, I have noticed from footage of old prog bands that both they and the audience would be engaged with utmost concentration in the performance whereas nowadays rock/metal bands - though maybe this still doesn't apply to prog, don't know - make it sort of like a party affair with the frontman giving up the chorus for the crowd to sing (shout) along to.  I am not saying this is necessarily a bad thing but maybe the focus is more on giving/having a good time and less on creating a great musical experience?
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  Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2009 at 11:30
Originally posted by rogerthat

Originally posted by Synchestra

 Ok that sounds cheesey, the point is, prog doesnt need to be a soundtrack to a way of life. The music is written for the sake of expression, if that makes sense Tongue

Yeah...there is no need for the music to be acceptable within a certain regular social setting, in which case it becomes a secondary accessory to that setting..it should engage you on an independent level and force you to make time for it.  I expect great music to transport me, not just entertain me or the company I keep.  I am not saying that prog is the only genre where this is achieved but at least some prog artists do strive to create a musical expression without consciously endeavouring to make it suitable for a particular social setting.  

Though I wasn't around in the times Dick Heath mentions, I have noticed from footage of old prog bands that both they and the audience would be engaged with utmost concentration in the performance whereas nowadays rock/metal bands - though maybe this still doesn't apply to prog, don't know - make it sort of like a party affair with the frontman giving up the chorus for the crowd to sing (shout) along to.  I am not saying this is necessarily a bad thing but maybe the focus is more on giving/having a good time and less on creating a great musical experience?


Ouch..you could have softened that methinks ? LOL
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  Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2009 at 11:32
Originally posted by ExittheLemming


Ouch..you could have softened that methinks ? LOL

Sorry!   Embarrassed
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  Quote Dick Heath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2009 at 12:20
Originally posted by ExittheLemming

[

Though I wasn't around in the times Dick Heath mentions,


Ouch..you could have softened that methinks ? LOL
[/QUOTE]
 
Phew.... but I got a time machine
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