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Prog rock sub-genre

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O666 View Drop Down
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  Quote O666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Prog rock sub-genre
    Posted: October 31 2009 at 14:01

In front of every band in PA write " sub genre ".  For example in front of GENESIS write " Symphonic prog". but many of bands have different sub genre in different albums. I want to know how you choose sub-genre label for one band. For example a band like GLASS HAMMER. They have very different albums. SHADOWLANDS is 100% symphonic prog and  THE MIDDLE EARTH ALBUM is 100% folk. what is GH sub genre. Many of prog bands like GH. I repeat my question : How you choose sub-genre of bands?

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  Quote rushfan4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2009 at 14:03
dart board; and if that doesn't work a ouija board is used.
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  Quote O666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2009 at 14:19
Originally posted by rushfan4

dart board; and if that doesn't work a ouija board is used.
Can you explain your opinion. I realy want to know what you say. thanks
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  Quote King Crimson776 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2009 at 14:28
^^ He was saying it's random. There is no logic to it. We all know that Camel is a Krautrock band, but the dart hit Symphonic. That's just the way it goes here.
"It's music, and I like it" - Miles Davis on Sketches of Spain

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  Quote akajazzman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2009 at 14:33

Good point.  Still, I’m pretty OK with the sub-genre label that usually gets assigned.  Not sure who/how they do it, but it seems to be based largely on the mode/median collective average of a bands’ output.  As much as we like to think our favorite bands can genre jump like a time traveller, most create a center of gravity from which their various outputs spin off.  Look at Frank Zappa.  There is nobody in the history of music that did more genre jumps than him.  Classical, musique concrete, R&R, hard rock, comedy, Prog, Jazz, fusion, R&B, Doo Wop, etc, and he gets the label “RIO/Avant Prog”.    J   And yet…I’m OK with that, it sort of works.

 

Pink Floyd on the other hand get “space rock”.  Well by Animals, and especially The Wall/Final Cut, that’s hardly Space Rock.   Still…much of their stuff often falls into that genre (which they hated, but too bad), so it still sort of works.

 

So it gets down to math almost.  The most albums in the most sub-genre gets the call, with a special emphasis on their early albums.

 
 
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  Quote O666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2009 at 14:37
Originally posted by King Crimson776

^^ He was saying it's random. There is no logic to it. We all know that Camel is a Krautrock band, but the dart hit Symphonic. That's just the way it goes here.
Thank you.Smile
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  Quote A Person Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2009 at 14:39
Originally posted by King Crimson776

^^ He was saying it's random. There is no logic to it. We all know that Camel is a Krautrock band, but the dart hit Symphonic. That's just the way it goes here.

Huh, I always tag Camel as Progressive Death/Black Metal, to each their own I guess.

How often do artists change genre here? I am under the impression not very often.

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  Quote The Truth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2009 at 14:42
I really don't pay much attention to sub-genres, it's all progressive rock. Except for maybe Black Sabbath
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  Quote O666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2009 at 15:02
When you labaled sub-genre of a band then many of younger or newer fans may mistake about that band. This is very important . I think we should label albums and if we want label bands we write few of sub-genre of  that band.
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  Quote Progosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2009 at 15:17
I see this as an inherent difficulty with creative artists whose careers span decades.  It is easy to identify the genre of Beyonce or AC/DC, because they stick closely to their particular money-maker, er I mean artistic style.  There are some categorizations on this site that I do not agree with, yet can see why they were made.  These categories are not set in stone, however, and is possible for a band/artist to be re-classified.  With artists that experiemt with styles, the categories can only be seen as either general or the place where the band started.  Jade Warrior's first album, for instance, fits the psychadelic space-rock designation, but their later Island Records albums clearly do not.  Hopefully there is some indication with the album itself to indicate a variation.  The serious progger who requires more information, will just have to dig further - such as raising issues like this one.
You can't develop a better appreciation of the art merely by reading a book about it. If you want to understand music better, you can do nothing more important than listen to it. - Aaron Copland
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  Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2009 at 15:36
This is very hurriedly written, but....

Many would prefer that albums be labelled, or even tracks rather than bands but such tagging is not in place here.  Incidentally, it is at progfreak.com. I would like searchable multi-tagging, but that would require a massive overhaul of the system and a huge amount of work.  It's not uncommon for bands to evaluated by different teams, and sometimes the decision depends on the material that is available (it may only be based on one album or myspace, but there's only so much time people can spend on debating and examining music).  There are so many bands that are submitted that teams check.  Some are no-brainers, others are harder and can't really be pigeon-holed but the teams try to determine best fit depending on the categories parameters.  It's not that uncommon for bands to be moved and there is much overlap between categories.  Zappa is in avant but he could easily be in Eclectic -- different people have different opinions on that.  What many think at the end of the day is that it's more important to get bands in in reasonable time than have category merits being wages between teams for a long time -- when that happens bands can fall through the cracks as there is only so much time one can expect volunteers to devote to the process.  So much material, so little time.

Mnay individual albums bands as well as artists/ bands have merits for various categories and I don't have time to explain how each category operates.  But in Eclectic, for instance, the team includes bands that have a variety of "prog" styles without having a clear prog-style referential core. If it leally eans to one mode, then it's suggested to that team.
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  Quote Gentlegiantprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2009 at 18:37
The one I don't get is Jethro Tull being in Folk.
This Was, Crest of A Knave and Dot Com aint all that folky and that's kinda the beginging middle and end; although I'll certainly give you the Songs' until Stormwatch era.
Is Aqualung folky or just kinda acoustic ?
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  Quote akajazzman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2009 at 20:14
Good point.  PA probably should put several/few appropriate sub-genre labels next to each band.  All Music Guide does this for music in general.  Where a band will have several sub-genres next to their name.  It sort of works.  What I don't find helpful is those that "hate labels" completely.   They're useful handles to try to find the music that you like, simple as that.  I know artists tend to hate labels more than fans, but thats too bad, if they don't like labels they need to "change it up." 
 
Kurt Cobain hated the term grunge.   Well his songs basically defined the genre, so it was (if he hadn't been killed/killed himself) his challenge to buck out of that.  I think he might have been able to do it too...but the "grunge" label would have still stuck with him until he died.
 
Robert Fripp hated the term Prog Rock being applied to KC.   But he practically invented it, and then saw it as a trap.  Thats a shame, because its such a great term.  "Progressive Rock!"  It spans so much width, from Henry Cow to Kansas to Dream Theater.  I dont find it limiting at all.
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  Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2009 at 20:56

We have a method:

1.- To assign a genre, we only count Prog albums, we add the non Prog albums only to have all the discography, so in bands as Genesis that released Prog and non Prog albums, we only count the Prog ones, all of which are Symphonic, then the band goes to Symphonic because of their Prog albums..

2.- If a band crosses more than one genre, but one of them is clearly predominant, we assign it as the main genre, the reviews can explain some changesalong their career

3.- If a band crosses more than one genre and no one is preeminent, we choose the one in which they released their best known albums and the ones that defined them, for example Jethro Tull, their first album (This Was) is a Blues album, butt Thick as a Brick, Songs from the Wood and Heavy Horses among others define them and for that reason define the Folk denomination.

4.- If a band crosses too many genres or has evolved changing too much or is impossibe to define (define Mike Oldfield LOL), the band goes to Eclectic if totally Prog (King Crimson, Gentle Giant, etc) or Crossover if has important mainstream elements.

BTW: Our denominations are almost equivalent to most Prog sites.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 31 2009 at 22:26
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  Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2009 at 21:01
^ that's about right   
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  Quote J-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2009 at 21:33
We usually try to decide a couple of things when adding a band:
  1. What genre is the majority of their albums? If they have released 10 symphonic albums, and 1 folk album, they go in Symphonic (unless it is a more even mix, then it goes to Eclectic usually)
  2. Which albums of the artists are getting them on this site? Genesis is not here because of Invisible Touch, ELP is not here because of Love Beach, and Yes is not here because of 90125. We jude bands by their most "progressive era". Otherwise, these bands could end up in prog related.
  3. When a band changes styles, that's what should be explained through reviews.
  4. Keep in mind, the subgenre is not meant to represent the band's ENTIRE discography. The point of subgenres is to help people with buying decisions. The bands in the Tech/Extreme Prog Metal section are clearly different from those in Rock Progressivo Italiano, and that's ultimately the main point of these subgenres. To set guidelines as to the general style of the band.
Hope that helps...

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  Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2009 at 22:31
Originally posted by O666

For example a band like GLASS HAMMER. They have very different albums. SHADOWLANDS is 100% symphonic prog and  THE MIDDLE EARTH ALBUM is 100% folk.

Please, The Middle Earth Album is not a Glass Hammer typical abum, it's one in a kind and except for "Mithrandir" (which was released previously in "On to Evermore" as "This Fading Age"), it's not a Prog album, so wouldn't count.
 
All the rest of Glass Hammer albums are Symphonic.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 31 2009 at 22:33
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  Quote Mr ProgFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2009 at 01:54
^ that's exactly what he said. The problem is that due to the genre-per-artists limitation PA is essentially telling people that the album is Symphonic Prog.
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  Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2009 at 09:46
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak

^ that's exactly what he said. The problem is that due to the genre-per-artists limitation PA is essentially telling people that the album is Symphonic Prog.
 
We're telling them that the band has released mainly Symphonic albums the reviews speak for themselves.
 
Lets remember that the SC work here for free and this would take a lot of ttime we don't have.
 
I doubt anybody has heard all the albums in a genre (at least of the biggest genres), so it would be impossible to listen all the albums and ,make a responsible choice of genres for each album.
 
Plus at the end the problems would be even worst, unless we gave 42 tags to each album, and that's irresponsible for us.
 
Iván
 
 
 
 
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  Quote O666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2009 at 13:02
I dont want talk about GH more. but the " CHRONOMETREE " is not 100% symphonic. Let see KING CRIMSON. "Island" very different to " Descipline ". or you dont see similarity between " In The Wake Of Poseidon " and " Thark" . all of these albums is very good ( i can say " masterpiece")  but they have't common elements and atmospher. for example You cant say i love " In the court of crimson king" then KC sub-genre is symphonic. Maybe i like other album with other sub-gen. If you want to categorize bands like KC ( floyd, zappa,...) you may have trouble. I dont talk about proff-fans. I dont want to burden my taste to amateur fans.( I dont want to say i am proffesional ). I want to catch start of the line correct and have correct alternatives to choose. Proffesional fans survey overpore but amateur must have clear point to start the path.
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