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Prog rock sub-genre |
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Marty McFly 
Collaborator 
Errors and Omissions Team Joined: March 23 2009 Location: Czech Republic Online Status: Offline Posts: 659 |
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 Topic: Prog rock sub-genrePosted: November 01 2009 at 13:17 |
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Thank you Iván, you've explained it very well.
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1) Aargh, sig(h) ?
50. place (230) reviews Nov, Friday 13, 2009 
STUDYING TO BECOME TEACHER, HEHE |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator 
Symphonic Prog Specialist Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Online Status: Online Posts: 11991 |
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Posted: November 01 2009 at 15:05 |
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Of course Chronometree is Symphonic, it's mainly a cross between Yes and ELP, probably their more 70's Symphonic oriented release, for many a step back to the roots of Prog after the advanced Lex Rex
Exactly, King Crimson started Symphonic, went some sort of Jazzy Symph, been close to Avant Garde and even to Metal, they changed from album to album, that's why King Croimson was moved by my team from Symphonic to Eclectic:
King Crimson is a book case of an Eclectic band.
And if you read, most of thesites have problems with the same bands as us, like Gentle Giant or Mike Oldfield:I believe our solution is better than the chosen by other websites:
or
or
or
Not that they are wrong, because I agree that KC, GG, Zappa and Olfield are unique cases, but we can't create a genre for each hard to define band.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 01 2009 at 15:06 |
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UpsideDown Ocean
Newbie 
Joined: August 13 2009 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 30 |
Quote Reply
Posted: November 01 2009 at 15:26 |
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...i wonder why we have to categorize everything...i discovered a lot of great bands i didn't know here on PA (best site in the whole internet....
 ) just looking at the reviews and reading the emotions that this or that album brought to the reviewer...maybe it was easier for me since i listen from Genesis to Brutal Death Metal, so i really have no problems in switching between very different genres...i mean, we shouldn't care if some KC albums are Symphonic and some Eclectic, we just have to thank them for their art....
...that's all! just my opinion btw! |
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I always liked to talk to people I don't know...with them I feel safe and sane...
(Italo Svevo, Zeno's Conscience) |
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kingfriso
Senior Member 
Joined: October 24 2007 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 423 |
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Posted: November 01 2009 at 16:24 |
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I think that everyone that has been a on this site for a while is not fully satisfied with all the sub-genres and how all bands are listed.
Take for instance: Banco is RPI, but if they wouldn't have originated from Italie, it would have been Eclectic prog. Traffic is listed as eclectig prog, which I don't understand. Jan Akkerman played jazz for 95% of his career, still he is listed as eclectic. Some people call all german prog Krautrock, while Grobschnitt and Eloy are clearly symphonic and space rock, and not Krautrock-like at all. It's just impossible to keep everyone satisfied in this matter. Prog just isn't the genre for perfect subgenres. |
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O666
Groupie 
Joined: September 20 2009 Location: TEHRAN-IRAN Online Status: Offline Posts: 84 |
Quote Reply
Posted: November 04 2009 at 06:29 |
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WOW Ivan
 . I cant talk anymore. you are complete and i think i study many things from you. but i dont undrestand " why we must categorize everything (as "upsidedown ocean" says). I am 40 years old and i be with prog 24 yaers since i was 16. I listen to many many prog music and know several bands. I live with prog everytime. I know what you say and i know what is ECLECTIC PROG mean. I dont care about sub-genres of prog. BUT i want to know what is philosopy of CATEGORIZE bands or artists like KC,GG,ZAPPA and.... YOU CANT SEE MUSIC WITH YOUR EYES. music effects your brain and struct many things in your thoughts. different people show different reaction with same music and built different things in their thoughts. Prog music effect to your personal feelings and toughts directly and when you want categorize this style of music ( like KC,ZAPPA,...) you burden your opinion to others.
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Slartibartfast
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Crossover Team Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais, GA Online Status: Offline Posts: 9483 |
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Posted: November 04 2009 at 07:05 |
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If some groups only played music that qualified them clearly for only one sub that would be kind of boring wouldn't it? Sometimes pigeonholing an artist is more of an art than a science.
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A penny for my thoughts and yet I have to put my two cents in. What the hell is wrong with this equation?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Symphonic Prog Specialist Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Online Status: Online Posts: 11991 |
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Posted: November 04 2009 at 11:03 |
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When we joined the forum, the genres were already there, and we are not the only ones. Each and every Prog site or piece of Prog literature has divided the bands into genres. I know it's hard to understand, but I believe Sub-Genres are necessary, if not, how people would understand that Zappa, Rick Wakeman, Pink Floyd, Return to Forever, Los Jaivas, Magma and Peter Gabriel are all part of the same big genre called Progressive Rock, when they have almost nothing in common? People need to classify the bands according their influences to understand why a band is Prog and why not. Progressive Rock has grown way beyond the dreams of the founders, we have bands that have opposite sounds, in POP it's easy, most of the bands have a similar sound and a common ANAB structure. But most genres not, check Jazz with endless sub-genres, because artists like Funki Porcini, Louis Armstrong, Miles Davis, Casiopea (Japan), Return to Forever, Jean Luc Ponty, or even the poppy Chuck Mangione or the soft almost ethnic Herp Albert have nothing in common, also Metal is divided in much more sub-genres than Prog. Even classical music is divided not only according the eras (Baroque,Classic, Romantic, etc) but also according the style inside a same era. So, in wide and complex genres, sub-genres are required. Keep Proggin.
Iván |
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O666
Groupie
Joined: September 20 2009 Location: TEHRAN-IRAN Online Status: Offline Posts: 84 |
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Posted: November 04 2009 at 12:38 |
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OK Ivan. Thank you very much for your complete answers to me. I undrestand what you say and i know YOU UNDRESTAND ME. I love this site and i believe that this is the best prog rock site with nice guys like you. I study in forums everyday. My english tied me and i cant explain my mean more. I agree with your last post.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Symphonic Prog Specialist Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Online Status: Online Posts: 11991 |
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Posted: November 04 2009 at 13:07 |
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Thank you for your interest.
Iván
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UpsideDown Ocean
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Joined: August 13 2009 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 30 |
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Posted: November 04 2009 at 13:35 |
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i guess we are saying exactly the same thing!!! music is "seen" by our hearts through emotions...and you just CAN'T categorize emotions...that's what i was saying! i repeat, that's my own opinion... |
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I always liked to talk to people I don't know...with them I feel safe and sane...
(Italo Svevo, Zeno's Conscience) |
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O666
Groupie
Joined: September 20 2009 Location: TEHRAN-IRAN Online Status: Offline Posts: 84 |
Quote Reply
Posted: November 05 2009 at 04:46 |
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I 100% agree with you ocean.but i think ivan try to say when you have a site like PA you MUST categorize bands,albums,genres .... to give good options to others to talk about that. without categories you cant reach to correct form of sites like PA. but i had problem to "how" categorize prog rock sub genres and after past few days we reach to " why"!! Thank you ocean. you and me have common ideas. nice to meet you.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Symphonic Prog Specialist Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Online Status: Online Posts: 11991 |
Quote Reply
Posted: November 05 2009 at 08:32 |
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Hi UpsideDown: Nobody is trying to categorize your emotions, it's true that you and I as persons don't need a tag to know what we like, but music as any other discipline needs a method, structure and theory, for a better understanding. Take an example, I love the music of Bach, Wagner and the Russian Nationalist Movement of the late 1800's....I don't care to what era they belong, if the first one is Baroque, while Wagner and all the Russians of the late 1800's are technically Romantics, doesn't mean a thing to me. But the problem comes when you study music, first you have to understand why Bach is different to the rest of the mentioned musicians if both are classical musiv¿cians?, Only knowing when the Baroque era was and what their characteristics were, you will have an idea.. Then the problem gets even more complex, how will you explain people that Wagner and Borodin are both Romantic, when their musical conception is so different?
You have to understand that the Nationalists have a totally different conception of music, only when you identify them, you will learn that they tried to break with the French conception of music and that they added Russian Folklore to their music...Only then you will understand that:
In the same way, how will you explain people that a soft and almost narcotic band as Camel is as Progressive as the frenetic Mahavishnu Orchestra? You will only get it knowing that there's a sub-genre called Symphonic to which Camel is ascribed and another sub-genre that mixes Jazz and Progressive Rock called Fusion. The examples are many, but the point is one, you can only understand Prog if you understand why a band is considered part of the genre and understanding the sub-genres. Your position is moderate, I read in this same forum, opinions of members who said "I don't care about Prog and not Prog, for me it's only good and bad music". and they probably see you as too technical when you qualify a band as Prog, when they don't want labels at all....So who is right, you or them? We all wish things were very simple..Prog and Not Prog, but the reality is different, Prog is too wide and complex to ignore the different genres, styles and influences. Iván
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UpsideDown Ocean
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Joined: August 13 2009 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 30 |
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Posted: November 05 2009 at 09:00 |
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Thank you for your explanation, Ivàn!
my opinion was just that too much categorization can damage the personal vision everybody has on music, but i really understand your example on Bach and classical music...in some way progressive is very similar to classical music, because what we call "prog" has a loooooooooooooot of very different shades and differences, both musical and of mentality i mean, we consider "prog" Between the Buried and me and (just to understand the difference) Pink Floyd... even if a lot of atmosphere of the seventies can be found in a lot of extreme metal bands, we just can't say "well, the're all progressive". it's really important to define, to define is a way to explain, and in a complex music world, like prog, a little explanation is really worth and useful! for O666, nice to meet you here too! |
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I always liked to talk to people I don't know...with them I feel safe and sane...
(Italo Svevo, Zeno's Conscience) |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Symphonic Prog Specialist Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Online Status: Online Posts: 11991 |
Quote Reply
Posted: November 05 2009 at 09:51 |
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Right UpsideDown, creating more and more sub-genres is not the best option IMO.
Different sites have different number of sub-genres, there's one site that has more than 100, which include AOR, Contemporary, Post Pop, for example (???)....I believe this is way too much.
Our friends of Progressor have 5 huge genres
Not my option, but ifit works for them, great.
I believe our option of 22 is the right balance, maybe one or two are not so precise, but it's a good average.
Iván
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O666
Groupie
Joined: September 20 2009 Location: TEHRAN-IRAN Online Status: Offline Posts: 84 |
Quote Reply
Posted: November 07 2009 at 14:19 |
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YESSSSS. sub genres in this site better than other sites. i shocked ivan. i die for mahavishnu. BIRDS OF FIRE is masterpiece. I cant find MO in forums. why? |
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Logan
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Canuckistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 6608 |
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Posted: November 07 2009 at 14:27 |
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I don't know why, I did a search and found quite a few "Mahavishnu Orchestra" topics (all but one locked, though with the full name in the title). Aside from topics with it in the title, MO gets mentioned quite a lot around here. Check out various Fusion topics.
Aside from the forum search (use any date), here are google's results: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=site%3Aprogarchives.com%2Fforum+Mahavishnu+Orchestra&btnG=Search&meta= Edited by Logan - November 07 2009 at 14:30 |
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Sheller Lux Aeterna, Macchi Voix, Vannier L'enfant..., Morricone Il sorriso..., , Henderson Realization, Mann Stone Flute, Byrd Electric Byrd, Hubbard Red Clay, White Venusian Summer, Bob James One
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waywardsonsam
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Joined: October 19 2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 13 |
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Posted: November 08 2009 at 17:37 |
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I thought Camel was middle eastern desert prog?!? |
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O666
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Joined: September 20 2009 Location: TEHRAN-IRAN Online Status: Offline Posts: 84 |
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Posted: November 09 2009 at 12:33 |
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