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progrules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 14 2007
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 958
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Topic: Why Steely Dan is crossover? Posted: January 08 2010 at 03:49 |
UMUR wrote:
Crossover is the place for them IMO. There are as many pop/ rock elements in their sound as there are jazz elements. They are not what I would describe as a hardcore jazz rock/ fusion act. But I think the JR/F team should decide on this one. |
THIS ! And the fact is that Steely Dan only started to get really jazzy with their fifth album The Royal Scam to perfect it with Aja and Gaucho. After some 20 years of silence they came back with two funky jazz albums. I think their poppy and jazzy content is about 50-50. Crossover is fine with me.
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A day without prog is a wasted day
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Thyme Traveler
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 12 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 164
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Posted: January 07 2010 at 00:45 |
Dean wrote:
I'm not bothered - if the JR/F team wants them they can have them with my blessing. |
Steely Dan is one of those bands (like Styx) which no one really wants to claim as their own. IMO, Steely Dan is Prog related at best. Of course, that could all bebecause I just don't care for their music all that much.
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Fire up the flux capacitor ! We're taking this Delorean through all four dimensions. What is the future of prog ? Genesis reunion ? I'm not telling!That could upset the thyme/space continuum.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 64351
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Posted: January 06 2010 at 23:26 |
^ where was that pompous, crude and quite informed opinion back when we were fighting like dingos to get them in Xover?
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15783
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Posted: January 06 2010 at 23:21 |
I've known the band for 21 years so my opinion trumps yours. They're crossover.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29625
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Posted: January 06 2010 at 23:18 |
Now that it's mentioned there I can see the R&B parts. Oh God, they're responsible for some of Genesis around the Abacab era. Not to insult anyone, but I find these discussions rather pointless after a while, but hey have fun with it.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32477
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Posted: January 06 2010 at 11:55 |
Finnforest wrote:
Trademark wrote:
JROCHA wrote:
They are not a straight up Jazz Rock band, they add r&b and pop rock into their music. I would not put them into the jazz rock /fusion category. |
Seconded |
Thirded. They really seem perfectly well-placed if I understand the Crossover definition at all. | And fourthed. A fair share of their work is pop-oriented also.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 03 2007
Location: .
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Points: 16913
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Posted: January 06 2010 at 11:48 |
Trademark wrote:
JROCHA wrote:
They are not a straight up Jazz Rock band, they add r&b and pop rock into their music. I would not put them into the jazz rock /fusion category. |
Seconded |
Thirded. They really seem perfectly well-placed if I understand the Crossover definition at all.
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Trademark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
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Posted: January 06 2010 at 11:39 |
JROCHA wrote:
They are not a straight up Jazz Rock band, they add r&b and pop rock into their music. I would not put them into the jazz rock /fusion category.
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Seconded
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O666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
Status: Offline
Points: 2618
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Posted: January 06 2010 at 10:56 |
Guys. SD is one of progressive bands. I dont care when SD inclusion in PA. I talk about genre. I dont mean SD is full jazz/fusion in all albums. I say you can find more jazz elements in SD . maybe i mistake. After " AJA" album SD use more jazz elements to make albums. " AJA " is one of important jazz rock album with prog touch .I say if you want categorize SD in PA with PA definition, this band close to JR/F style. This is one proposal.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 13:05 |
SD were added August 2008...
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What?
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FusionKing
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 28 2009
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 522
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 12:23 |
Are you sure? I could have sworn they've been on this site for quite some time now...
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19614
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 09:05 |
FusionKing wrote:
I agree. It's been two years since I got into this site and it still surprises me that Steely Dan aren't in the Jazz-Rock Fusion section. |
I'm not sure Steely dan's inclusion in PA is older than one year
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let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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UMUR
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Denmark
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Points: 3010
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 07:18 |
Crossover is the place for them IMO. There are as many pop/ rock elements in their sound as there are jazz elements. They are not what I would describe as a hardcore jazz rock/ fusion act. But I think the JR/F team should decide on this one.
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O666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
Status: Offline
Points: 2618
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 07:09 |
Donald Fagen and Walter Becker build SD. If you listen to their solo album, you see i say correct. You know every bands have important member to direct bands act. If you see Crossover definition and focus only to DEFINITION , maybe all of pop rock or alternative or indie rock bands seem like crossover! but you must find PROG elements for categorize bands under this definition. When we have good definition for JR/F sub genre we must use it for nearest shape. AND i dont think SD is pop or commerical band. You cant remove arrangements of bands then categorize it!!!! All part of musical structure must see together. i believe SD is a jazz rock band.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19614
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Posted: January 04 2010 at 05:14 |
Finnforest wrote:
snobb wrote:
Traditionally Steely Dan is often placed under jazz-rock label, and there is a big part of truth. But the main reason I think is their jazzy arrangements, not music by itself. If you will remove jazzy arrangements, which heavily influence their sound, you will find pure art-rock (or soft-rock,or pop-rock,if you want) on the level of 10 CC. So, I think it is more correct to name their music kind of art-rock with jazzy arrangements ( which menas that they are placed correctly under crossover prog). |
I'm with Slava here. They would seem to be the perfect fit for this definition:
Crossover Prog definitionCrossover Prog contains progressive rock music that, though 100% progressive, may have a musical connection to popular music-- whether it be the lack of emphasis on extended compositions, or an influence from mainstream music in addition to classical, jazz and folk. Compositions, however, still exhibit a high degree of sophistication, sometimes outright complexity, and the musicianship and virtuosity is often on a par with established Prog acts. Much like their kin in the established prog sub-genres, these groups will incorporate many major parts of what defines prog rock: the fusing of rock with the structures and discipline of more traditional musics, the use of syntheisizers and new technologies, intelligent thematics, and the expansion of the form
They certainly don't sound like straight up jazz genre to me, but then I'm no expert in that area.
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I'm also one that thought that SD is not JR/F enough to fit in that section....
Basically this is well West Coast pop rock bordering soft rock with jazzy arrangements. More than being progressive..... I think SD is about two guys being pure professional and using every string possible to write excellent songs..... these two guys were pros in tight songwriting, but they never really let it all out musically speaking .... no great long solos, no suites, no improvs;...... mostly straight ahead songs, no matter how well made....
I fought for SD's inclusion, but viewed it more as prog-related than a full-blown prog category
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let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
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Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: January 03 2010 at 17:13 |
Raff wrote:
I'm posting on behalf of Micky here (he's still not woken up completely yet), who did the addition at the time. Obviously, the band's placement was discussed at length before the actual addition, and the members of the JR/F team - who all agreed with having SD here - thought it would be better placed in Xover. As simple as that. On a personal note, I think they would fit JR/F better as well, but am definitely not losing sleep over that. |
Bang on Raff the most important thing is they are here.
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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JROCHA
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 18 2007
Location: Oakland, KS
Status: Offline
Points: 1501
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Posted: January 03 2010 at 17:12 |
They are not a straight up Jazz Rock band, they add r&b and pop rock into their music. I would not put them into the jazz rock /fusion category.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 16913
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Posted: January 03 2010 at 17:00 |
snobb wrote:
Traditionally Steely Dan is often placed under jazz-rock label, and there is a big part of truth. But the main reason I think is their jazzy arrangements, not music by itself. If you will remove jazzy arrangements, which heavily influence their sound, you will find pure art-rock (or soft-rock,or pop-rock,if you want) on the level of 10 CC. So, I think it is more correct to name their music kind of art-rock with jazzy arrangements ( which menas that they are placed correctly under crossover prog). |
I'm with Slava here. They would seem to be the perfect fit for this definition: Crossover Prog definition
Crossover Prog contains progressive rock music that, though 100%
progressive, may have a musical connection to popular music-- whether
it be the lack of emphasis on extended compositions, or an influence
from mainstream music in addition to classical, jazz and folk.
Compositions, however, still exhibit a high degree of sophistication,
sometimes outright complexity, and the musicianship and virtuosity is
often on a par with established Prog acts. Much like their kin in the
established prog sub-genres, these groups will incorporate many major
parts of what defines prog rock: the fusing of rock with the structures
and discipline of more traditional musics, the use of syntheisizers and
new technologies, intelligent thematics, and the expansion of the formThey certainly don't sound like straight up jazz genre to me, but then I'm no expert in that area.
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FusionKing
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 28 2009
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 522
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Posted: January 03 2010 at 15:51 |
I agree. It's been two years since I got into this site and it still surprises me that Steely Dan aren't in the Jazz-Rock Fusion section.
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The Runaway
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 28 2009
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 3144
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Posted: January 03 2010 at 07:51 |
That's what I was thinking a few days ago! They're not really X-Over and they are really JR/F.
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