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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Infuential pre prog album on prog.
    Posted: April 26 2004 at 07:15

I'm sure this has been done before but here goes. This comes from Sid Smith asking my opinion of albums released before the start of the prog period (say prior to 1965), that would or may have influenced the early progressive movement.

Dave Brubeck Quartet: "Time Out" - for "Blue Rondo Ala Turka"

Dave Brubeck Quartet: "Live At Carnegie Hall" (perhaps Volume 2 rather than Volume 1 if vinyl, or the complete 2002 remastered CD issued as late as 2002). Again for "Blue Rondo Ala Turka" - which with hindsight, this extended live version sounds as prog as a mainstream modern jazz group could go (1963), and the multi-time signature, Joe Morello's "Castillian Drums", which a number of aspiring drummers practiced along aside in the 60's - those guys also went to his drum clinics in London.

Shostakovitch's Cello Concerto No 1 (recommend the Rostapovitch and Bernstein version - which is available with the amazing 1st Piano on a Columbia Classics CD), said by Andrew Lloyd Webber to be the first rock concerto. Listen to the first movement and there is something in that statement.

 

other suggestions please.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2004 at 14:22
I don't know if you're familiar with Third Stream jazz a movement which incorporated classical music and jazz in the mid to late 1950's. It didn't really catch on and was sort of started up by Charlie Parker in 1949.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2005 at 17:10

In the spirit of resurrecting old threads, I think some more input on this thread is needed.

I'll add that some of the electronic and avant-garde composers, like Berio, Cage, Stockhausen and Varese were hugely influential;

Varese influenced Zappa, and Stockhausen taught Holgar Czukay and Irmin Schmidt from Can, for example.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2005 at 18:14
I have an interesting unreleased acetate LP by a British beat band called
JACKIE & THE GEEZENSTACKS, cut in March 1965. One of the tracks is a
rock setting of Tchaikovsky's "1812 Overture". Obviously the band weren't
influential on anyone, as they never released any material, and the setting
is more in the vein of THE SHADOWS than anything recognisably
progressive, but this sort of cross-genre fusion was still extremely
unusual for 1965.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2005 at 18:36
You can't mention Third Stream Jazz without mentioning the Modern Jazz Quartet.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2005 at 18:46

You mean to say there was a long longago,before Dream Theater?

But 1989 was year ZERO,so there could not be prog music before then.Therefore there couldnt be a Pre-prog time.....Unhappy

You mean a time before Dream Time? Nah, you're having us on Heath!Wacko

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2005 at 14:09

MR Heath asked for "Any suggestions?"

Be nice.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2005 at 03:58

Keith Emerson and a number of organists in the late sixties were influenced by an album called the 'Zodiac Cosmic Sounds Of New York' (1966?).Don't have any more info than that though.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2005 at 11:36

SGT PEPPERS LONELY HEARTS CLUB BAND:

i cant believe it hasnt been mentioned yet, it took pyschadelic rock to a whole new level, here are some of its innovations and influences on prog.

1.one of the first concept albums...all albums up until this album were just a bunch of random songs with at least one or two songs that will be released as singles...this was the first big album to fit all the songs into a certain concept, which involved fictional characters played by the beatles.

2.it was innovative in the way it used disperate instruments, deverse styles and song structures.

3.songs like within you without you and a day in the life were much longer than most songs released on a album before them.

4.it introduced new guitar effects like echo, wah wah, fuzz box and phase.

5.innovative in the way songs were edited and spliced.

6.the unsual cover art made album cover art a new priority.

7.ringos jazz influenced drumming style and maccartneys decision to plug his bass into a amp instead of a microphone like all bassists did at the time were pretty influencial.

8.the lyrics and song themes were unusual and unconventional...fantasy ellements and phillosophy ellements which were not very typical of most rock albums.

9.the beatles unusual wordrobe influenced most progressive rock artists in the way they presented themselves.

10.it featured one of the first uses of moog and made keyboard more important in its songs.

11.early use of tape loop effects.



Edited by boo boo
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2005 at 11:41
I also believe the Beatles had a huge impact on prog. Not only, but more or less all rock/pop music.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2005 at 11:51
Originally posted by Certif1ed

In the spirit of resurrecting old threads, I think some more input on this thread is needed.

I'll add that some of the electronic and avant-garde composers, like Berio, Cage, Stockhausen and Varese were hugely influential;

Varese influenced Zappa, and Stockhausen taught Holgar Czukay and Irmin Schmidt from Can, for example.

IMO Holst and Cage influenced a lot of groups, for example king Crimson

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2005 at 11:53

 

well, isn't exactly my opinion, I read that somewhere
but I like John Cage music and the planet's from Holst

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2005 at 11:59

Oh yeah, The Beatles' influence can NEVER be underplayed or unestimated- everything about them changed pop/ rock music forever; the high quality playing, the willingness to experiment- something only Buddy Holly had ever done with pop music before- the top notch production that utilised the then new fangled stereo system. Also, although I'm not the greatest fan of the song (or this sort of 'experimental' music in general), no mainstream pop act apart from The Beatles would have dared to put a track like 'Revolution No.9' on an album, which is willingly obscure and uneasy listening, on an album. 'The White Album' definitely showed an incredible ambition to have every genre under the sun on it- rock (Back In The USSR, Helter Skelter, Everybody's Got Something To Hide...', Why Don't We Do It In The Road), folk/balladeering (Julia, I Will, Dear Prudence) musichall (Martha My Dear, Wild Honey Pie), psychedelic weirdness (Piggies, Bungalow Bill, Happiness Is A Warm Gun), musique concrete (Revolution No.9), torch ballads (Good Night) and a lot more besides.

An album that Frank Zappa cited as a huge influence was Eric Dolphy's 'Out To Lunch', namechecking the album on the classic track 'Oh No' and the artist himself on the very Dolphy esque 'Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbecue'.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2005 at 12:21

Great selections! Here's a few more:

1. 1960 ~ Bernard Herrmann ~ Soundtrack for Hitchcock's Psycho. The way he used the starkness of the violins was very effective. Which leads us to....

2. 1966 ~ Beatles ~ Eleanor Rigby. George Martin has said that Herrmann's work was a big influence on this.

3. 1966 ~ Beatles ~ Tomorrow Never Knows from Revolver. Really a result of the Beatles, George Martin and the engineers playing the studio. Even Mr. Collins did his version on his first solo album Face Value.

4. 1967 ~ Beatles ~ Strawberry Fields Forever. IMO, a brilliant marriage of classical and rock elements.

 



Edited by Schizoid Man
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2005 at 12:21
I don't think there was any 'pre-prog' music influencing progressive rock's onset.  I think it was simply an explosion of consciousness and creativity that happened in the 60's that resulted in musicians experimenting, expanding borders and limits (the hallmark of the 60's), resulting in what we now call prog.  The Beatles opened the door first so if you want to define a musical precursor then it would have to be them.  Otherwise it was the explosion of consciousness that occurred at the time. 

I think younger people now days don't grasp the incredible cultural and psychological revolution that happened in the 60's.  You had to be there.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2005 at 06:46
The Beatles weren't doing too much that was progressive before 1965
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2005 at 08:22

Well, I agree with boo boo's assertions about sgt. pepper, but both this and all other beatles records (whether you might accept them as prog or not) miss these things (probably among others): diverse structures brought together in one piece, shifts, unusual time signatures. No matter how experimental they got, beatles was still a pop group, that may be why they turned back to blues roots after '68. I was listening to beatles with great pleasure some 4-5 years ago, but as I got more involved in prog, their songs started to seem to me a bit cheesy and too straight. Hope you understand what I mean. Besides (under the light of Tangerine Dream being criticized for reverting to short songs -as in Exit-) Beatles never had a side-long suite, even if they did, this wouldn't make them prog... (still I'm not denying their influence on prog)

I would suggest another album by them, though... I believe magical mystery tour is more consistent, conseptual, and more "proggish" than anything they did. Sorry, I don't know about the rest of pre-'66 psychedelic bands! This may not be the greatest influence on prog, but it is still something!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2005 at 08:27

Originally posted by Certif1ed

The Beatles weren't doing too much that was progressive before 1965

Agreed! In fact their experimental (thus progressive) gusto started with the Rubber Soul album.

I was thinking about If I needed someone and Wait, just to mention the most "strange".

Actually, it's with Revolver that they started experimenting on a larger scale

A flower?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2005 at 12:27

what Boo Boo said. That album is the most important album in rock history (but not the best) and many of the influences of prog rock are there

Abbey road's side 2 is also an influence with its 20 minute long epic song with a similar structure of supper's ready. Plus, abbey road is one of the best albums of all times and I consider it prog enough.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2005 at 12:40
Originally posted by Schizoid Man

3. 1966 ~ Beatles ~ Tomorrow Never Knows from Revolver. Really a result of the Beatles, George Martin and the engineers playing the studio. Even Mr. Collins did his version on his first solo album Face Value.

Never heard Mr. Collins do that one. Brian Eno and Phil Manzanerra did this track on 801 Live... and they didn't have to change the song much for it to fit in with the other more prog tracks. Great example!

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